Page 10 of 19 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 278

Thread: Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

  1. #136
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Beyond Neverland
    Posts
    1,187
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCzar View Post
    That's discrediting Asada a little too much. She now has a Grand Prix Grand Slam (the first ever), she's the first Asian lady to win multiple world championships, a Guinness World Record for her Triple Axels. Yes she only has two World medals, but apart from Kim's gold- they have more or less the same amount of medals. I would definitely credit that as a GREAT career. Asada has never finished lower than top 10 in the World. If she doesn't win the OGM at Sochi, people surely will still remember her. Not only that, she has a MASSIVE following around the world. If that isn't a great career, I don't know what is. I respect your opinion, but I find it a little too obtuse.
    I too respect your opinion and agree that Asada have a great career and is one of the leading ladies for this sport in Japan. However, I do wonder if she skate for Korea and Yuna skate for Japan, how their fortune might have been reversed entirely? By that I mean, federation, training support, rules and point value changes, sponsorship, commercial interests. There's no doubt in my mind, one of would have had FAR MORE SUCCESS; the other - I honestly can't say, especially given the triple axle as impressive as it is, has also PROVEN to be unreliable and prone to UR.

    As for the Grand Prix Slam, i don't how this record can be considered as impressive when Yuna Kim has never been invited to participate in NHK Trophy. Yuna has already won the Grand Prix Final 3 out of the 4 years she participated, the other time she came 2nd. Mao failed to qualify 2 out of 9 years she participated, 1 times due to withdraw for entirely understandably reason. She had 5 more years to accomplish this. Had she accomplished in her 5th year I'd be far more impressed than the 5 years extra it took her, which is almost by default since she and Carolina has the longest career today. So this claim should always followed by a MASSIVE astrix since her main rival and arguably the leader of the sport was left out of Mao's home event completely, and that even had Yuna continued to take part in Grand Prix, she would have never able to accomplish this. I can't imagine this happen in any sport, the unfairness seems utterly ridiculous.

    I'd be genuinely curious how MASSIVE the following the two skaters are around the world. Take attendance figures of the competition they entered for instances. Or how about looking at opinion poll from the next generation of skaters? I do recollect many like Gracie, ZiJun, Julia, Liza seems to went on the record for their admiration for Yuna, some even copied her costumes, and certainly their approach to skating seems to have emulate Yuna far more than attempting a 3A or being balletic and skate to soft classical music.

    I wish there are more reliable indicators than youtube views given:
    - Most people in non English speaking worlds like China, Korea and probably Japan don't use youtube, they have localised version of these vids services. What does the viewing stats tell?
    - Yuna's youtube vids with millions of hits always get mysterious deleted by copyright infringement. How come?

    Keywords on Google.com, search for Yuna Kim and Mao Asada. What are the search results? 6:1, it isn't even close.

    How about who had the most and the biggest headline among the international press, past present and the future? Why not get a general consensus among the world media/ punters on the leading story and figure in this sport? NBC/BBC/CNN/CBC/Ruteurs/CNE/Eurosport/ESPN, Olympics.org to name a few

    Who's scores in their entire career history are able to stand up to the greatest scrutiny, and what reasons for them? Who has been most overscored, who underscored, and how that affect the rankings.

    The talks about legacy, who's to carry on the torch from Mao. While there are more possibility of someone available to head up the ladies in Japan, arguably that is because of the federation national support and infrastructures are there, rather than credit to that one skater. Other wise, Kanako, and other Japanese juniors would have followed the 3A training already, as difficult as it might. Or that China would have already had multiple artistic skaters already leading the race due to LuChen, who like Midori Ito are both one Gold World Champion medalist.

    Had any of the above questions stand up to scrutiny, I'd be far more impressed.

  2. #137
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    Janet Lynn changed a system. And inspired future greatness in the form of Michelle Kwan, who in turn inspired Yuna Kim.

  3. #138
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    589
    Quote Originally Posted by RABID View Post
    Janet who? Seriously, Janet has an interesting story but hers is mostly a story of defeat. Kim also has a fascinating story so much so they could make an interesting HOLLYWOOD movie about it. But here's the difference; she wins and usually in dominating style and yes, she has brought something to the sport that is influential now and the foreseeable future. To put it into the proper context, if Kim were American she would most definitely be trumpeted as the greatest skater ever and she would say, thank you, Janet Lynn and the American public would say, Janet who?
    Is it necessary to put another skater story and success down to prove something that most people on this forum will agree with: Kim Yuna will be remembered as one of the greats, her influence in figure skating will be talked about from generations to come and She =figure skating in South Korea

  4. #139
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    15,256
    But we already established that World Wide, it is not generally competitive programs that engage the general public.

    I asked my husband this question, since he is a captive skating fan, and more like a member of the general public, who he thinks are legendary skaters (I didn't specify a time frame).

    His answer was Toller Cranston (who never won higher than a bronze at Worlds or Olympics) and Torvill & Dean. Those are the ones he remembers as legendary.

    Toller only manages about 20K page views on his vids, pretty good for a guy from 1972-1976 (but longer in pros)

  5. #140
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    589
    I could have swear the title of this thread is who will be considered among the greats? If we go by the standards of some poster HERE Michelle Knwan will not be considered great because she does not have an Olympic medal.

  6. #141
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Beyond Neverland
    Posts
    1,187
    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    I could have swear the title of this thread is who will be considered among the greats? If we go by the standards of some poster HERE Michelle Knwan will not be considered great because she does not have an Olympic medal.
    Whoever says that is greatly mistaken... consider what makes Janet Lynn great are the inspiration and influences the other great skaters look up to her, as did Kwan did to Yuna Kim and many generations of American Skaters. Same as what one can say about Toller Cranston and John Curry. A skater's skater.

  7. #142
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    589
    By the way is so funny to see how Mao's accomplishments get scrutinized
    She did win all the GP events buy only because......
    She is the only one who does triple axels but..........
    She is the face of Figure Skating in the country where figure skating is the most popular but......
    She is a two time world champion but......
    She is a three time GPF final champion but .........
    She is the youngest person to get Triple axel ratified but.........

  8. #143
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    1,212
    Yuna Kim. Virtue/Moir. Davis/White.

    I would say those are the only current skaters who could be considered among the all-time greats. Someone like Plushenko coming out of retirement again not-withstanding.

    The other names mentioned here are good skaters for their day, or national icons, or someone's favorite skater but imo will be largely forgotten in a generation. Then there are some names listed that haven't even accomplished anything yet. I think some posters lack perspective, but hey everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

  9. #144
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I too respect your opinion and agree that Asada have a great career and is one of the leading ladies for this sport in Japan. However, I do wonder if she skate for Korea and Yuna skate for Japan, how their fortune might have been reversed entirely? By that I mean, federation, training support, rules and point value changes, sponsorship, commercial interests. There's no doubt in my mind, one of would have had FAR MORE SUCCESS; the other - I honestly can't say, especially given the triple axle as impressive as it is, has also PROVEN to be unreliable and prone to UR.
    First, this thread is not a comparison between the two skaters. Second, you go too far in your argument that Mao's career has been helped by her federation. That's like saying we can't take the success of skaters from larger federations at face-value. In certain areas, they have some advantage and in other areas, they don't. For example, skaters from larger federations have more competitive nationals. In this regard, one really has to credit Mao's resilience and ability to pull herself together in time for nationals every year. Akiko, Kanako, and Miki all had the opportunity to overtake Mao's spot as leading lady at times during her career but they did not manage to in the end. During her career, the rules changed far less in her favor than for her in my opinion. I actually feel if their situations were reversed, Mao's career might have been better. What has held her back is her technique issues which were taught to her by her coach Yamada, who is not known for teaching good technique. Just look at Kanako. Yuna was fortunate to have coaches who taught her great technique on her jumps.

    As for younger skaters not going for the 3A. Couldn't the reason simply be that it is a very difficult jump to master? Gold and Liza had both at one time expressed a desire to try that jump. There were even videos of Liza attempting the jump before.

  10. #145
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    First, this thread is not a comparison between the two skaters. Second, you go too far in your argument that Mao's career has been helped by her federation. That's like saying we can't take the success of skaters from larger federations at face-value. In certain areas, they have some advantage and in other areas, they don't. For example, skaters from larger federations have more competitive nationals. In this regard, one really has to credit Mao's resilience and ability to pull herself together in time for nationals every year. Akiko, Kanako, and Miki all had the opportunity to overtake Mao's spot as leading lady at times during her career but they did not manage to in the end. During her career, the rules changed far less in her favor than for her in my opinion. I actually feel if their situations were reversed, Mao's career might have been better. What has held her back is her technique issues which were taught to her by her coach Yamada, who is not known for teaching good technique. Just look at Kanako. Yuna was fortunate to have coaches who taught her great technique on her jumps.

  11. #146
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    I too respect your opinion and agree that Asada have a great career and is one of the leading ladies for this sport in Japan. However, I do wonder if she skate for Korea and Yuna skate for Japan, how their fortune might have been reversed entirely? By that I mean, federation, training support, rules and point value changes, sponsorship, commercial interests. There's no doubt in my mind, one of would have had FAR MORE SUCCESS; the other - I honestly can't say, especially given the triple axle as impressive as it is, has also PROVEN to be unreliable and prone to UR.

    As for the Grand Prix Slam, i don't how how this record can be considered as impressive when Yuna Kim has never been invited to participate in NHK Trophy. Yuna has already won the Grand Prix Final 3 out of the 4 years she participated, the other time she came 2nd. Mao failed to qualify 2 out of 9 years she participated, 1 times due to withdraw for entirely understandably reason. She had 5 more years to accomplish this. Had she accomplished in her 5th year I'd be far more impressed than the 5 years extra it took her, which is almost by default since she and Carolina has the longest career today. So this claim should always followed by a MASSIVE astrix since her main rival and arguably the leader sport was left out of Mao's home event completely, and that even had Yuna continued to take part in Grand Prix, she would have never able to accomplish this. I can't imagine this happen in any sport, the unfairness seems utterly ridiculous.

    I'd be genuinely curious how MASSIVE the following the two skaters are around the world. Take attendance figures of the competition they entered for instances. Or how about looking at opinion poll from the next generation of skaters? I do recollect many like Gracie, ZiJun, Julia, Liza seems to went on the record for their admiration for Yuna, some even copied her costumes, and certainly their approach to skating seems to have emulate Yuna far more than attempting a 3A or being balletic and skate to soft classical music.

    I wish there are more reliable indicators than youtube views given:
    - Most people in non English speaking worlds like China, Korea and probably Japan don't use youtube, they have localised version of these vids services. What does the viewing stats tell?
    - Yuna's youtube vids with millions of hits always get mysterious deleted by copyright infringement. How come?

    Keywords on Google.com, search for Yuna Kim and Mao Asada. What are the search results? 6:1, it isn't even close.

    How about who had the most and the biggest headline among the international press, past present and the future? Why not get a general consensus among the world media/ punters on the leading story and figure in this sport? NBC/BBC/CNN/Reurturs/Eurosport/ESPN, Olympics.org to name a few

    Who's scores in their entire career history are able to stand up to the greatest scrutiny, and what reasons for them? Who has been most overscored, who underscored, and how that affect the rankings.

    The talks about legacy, who's to carry on the torch from Mao. While there are more possibility of someone available to head up the ladies in Japan, arguably that is because of the federation national support and infrastructures are there, rather than credit to that one skater. Other wise, Kanako, and other Japanese juniors would have followed the 3A training already, as difficult as it might. Or that China would have already had multiple artistic skaters already leading the race due to LuChen, who like Midori Ito are both one Gold World Champion medalist.

    Had any of the above questions stand up to scrutiny, I'd be far more impressed.
    If yuna wanted to attend NHK or any or other GP event for that matter she could just have asked for it, since she as a world medalist has that choice. but she didn't, so whether she would have been invited or not would not really have made any difference. you also talk as if yuna only lacks NHK but she lacks other GP titles too so even if she attended and won NHK she still would not have had the full collection. so your argument about yuna not having the full collection because she wasn't invited to NHK doesn't hold a candle, i'm sorry.
    It also seems like yuna herself is and has been trying to avoid any competition that are being held in japan.

    As for costumes being copied you will find skater who have copied Mao's and Yuna's costume. interesting would be to see whether their costumes were copied due to their admiration to the skaters or if it sorely was because the dress they copied simply looked great.

    you also talk about the triple Axel as an unreliable jump for Mao and prone to UR , but Mao has landed a fully rotated 3A in EVERY competition she entered since 4CC last year, not too shappy. she also seem to keep landing this jump at the most important events in her career and funny enough has also gotten a dosin of records with the jump you call unreliable.

  12. #147
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    145
    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post

    I'd be genuinely curious how MASSIVE the following the two skaters are around the world. Take attendance figures of the competition they entered for instances. Or how about looking at opinion poll from the next generation of skaters? I do recollect many like Gracie, ZiJun, Julia, Liza seems to went on the record for their admiration for Yuna, some even copied her costumes, and certainly their approach to skating seems to have emulate Yuna far more than attempting a 3A or being balletic and skate to soft classical music.
    .
    Can I just squeeze please, its fair enough- yes Yuna has inspired younger skaters, but so has Mao. Sotnikova regularly sits in to watch Mao's performance because she is a fan, Radionova has recently been quoted giving Mao props. Even veterans recognise the efforts of Mao's career and abilities that contributes to the sport. Plushenko, has more than once voiced support and admiration for Mao's technical prowess. I'm not trivialising your comment, but it is a little one sided. I will always view Kim and Asada as equals- in fact, actually I seem them as a balanced duo.

    Also, can I just say, Asada's axel may be a wildcard, but in the biggest event of her sporting career (i.e. Vancouver, she landed them. Thrice.) Furthermore, your argument for the Grand Slam is fine but its nit picking and you're trying to view this in so many ways. Yes, perhaps but black & white- Asada has indeed a GP Grand Slam, regardless of the circumstance. Nitpicking and continually finding reasons to discredit someone's success just seems unnecessary. But then if that's how you feel, I'll leave it at that.

    All I'm saying is that while Kim's career is incredible, Asada's is just as impressive.

  13. #148
    Mashimaro on Ice
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,419
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCzar View Post
    Can I just squeeze please, its fair enough- yes Yuna has inspired younger skaters, but so has Mao. Sotnikova regularly sits in to watch Mao's performance because she is a fan, Radionova has recently been quoted giving Mao props. Even veterans recognise the efforts of Mao's career and abilities that contributes to the sport. Plushenko, has more than once voiced support and admiration for Mao's technical prowess. I'm not trivialising your comment, but it is a little one sided. I will always view Kim and Asada as equals- in fact, actually I seem them as a balanced duo.
    ITA. I also feel it's always misleading when one judges influence based on whether a skater's style is emulated. No doubt, Mao idolizes Midori but their styles are quite different. Same goes for Kim and Kwan. The only skater whose style kinda reminds me of a young Kim is Christina Gao who does idolize her. Zijun is interesting since her style is quite different from her idol. She is light on the ice but not very powerful or fast. Reminds me more of Mao, especially when I see her perform the one-handed beillmann spin. But that's probably just me nitpicking.

  14. #149
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Beyond Neverland
    Posts
    1,187
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    First, this thread is not a comparison between the two skaters. Second, you go too far in your argument that Mao's career has been helped by her federation. That's like saying we can't take the success of skaters from larger federations at face-value. In certain areas, they have some advantage and in other areas, they don't. For example, skaters from larger federations have more competitive nationals. In this regard, one really has to credit Mao's resilience and ability to pull herself together in time for nationals every year. Akiko, Kanako, and Miki all had the opportunity to overtake Mao's spot as leading lady at times during her career but they did not manage to in the end. During her career, the rules changed far less in her favor than for her in my opinion. I actually feel if their situations were reversed, Mao's career might have been better. What has held her back is her technique issues which were taught to her by her coach Yamada, who is not known for teaching good technique. Just look at Kanako. Yuna was fortunate to have coaches who taught her great technique on her jumps.

    As for younger skaters not going for the 3A. Couldn't the reason simply be that it is a very difficult jump to master? Gold and Liza had both at one time expressed a desire to try that jump. There were even videos of Liza attempting the jump before.
    Well actually with all due respect, yes you CAN'T take things at face value in this sport.

    After all, this is an 100% human judged sport and a heavily politicized one, so things are never in black and white. Any debate to disregard this is completely ignorant. (Although certainly ignorance is bliss.)

    COP may imply numbers appears as absolutes, but they are open to scrutiny as long as variable factors can continues to distort and create uneven playing field, however slight to affect the rankings. The fact different competition standards are never re-calibrated between different judging panels to adhere to ONE STANDARD just opens to all sort of weird going ons. As long as there are different standards for different competitions, to enable different favorable conditions for different skaters / federations to navigate within the parameter of what can be most advantageous as a seasonal campaign, everything should be open to scrutiny. I'd simply love if they reveal how GP are drawn for examples, like what are the processes and why they continue to change every year?

    As long as certain skating competitions can have more lenient callers than others. That certain home events have more scoring advantages for some skaters but not others, and yes having a strong federation definitely helps, or in particular having a federation pull in your favour helps enormously even within the same federation. Put it this way, can you emphatically say having a powerful sporting federations like Japan, Canada, US has never helped skaters like Mao Asada, Patrick Chan and or even skaters like Michelle Kwan? Even with the great Kwan, I was under the impression at least 1996 WC is open to scrutiny and continue to be a point of contention that the winner can also be Chen Lu? You also can't take things at face value for the exact same reason why Janet Lynn is considered as great even without the big win to show for it, or that Michelle Kwan is great even without an OGM.

    A perfect 3A is a thing to marvel I have never debated. But the 2 footed landing is hardly a legit 3A however it is scored.

    I am not debating Mao is impressive. VERY impressive! Just that most of the things TheCzar have claimed her as most impressive are actually open to debate.

  15. #150
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    292
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Zijun is interesting since her style is quite different from her idol. She is light on the ice but not very powerful or fast. Reminds me more of Mao, especially when I see her perform the one-handed beillmann spin. But that's probably just me nitpicking.
    Did you see Zijun do 2A-3T, 3S, 3Loop and her -3T exactly same skills as Yuna's.
    Have you see Zijun do inna bauer as soon as her capability allowed her to do it. Have you notice that Zijun likes to skate on one foot with deep edges changes just like Yuna does (although not as good though).

    OKAY, all the above I mentioned is not important. In a TV interview, the interviewer pointed to a Magazine (Mao Asada as the cover) and asked Zijun: " what do you think of Mao (some question similar to this)。“ and Zijun said with out any hesitation " My idol is Yuna!"

    Who is the lady skater that majority of current young skaters listed as idol from all sorts of nationalities (including Japan and Russia).

    That skater is destined to be one of the greatest!

Page 10 of 19 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •