Page 2 of 19 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 278

Thread: Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

  1. #16
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    16,824
    Not a boxing fan, eh?

    The Thrilla in Manila

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrilla_in_Manila

    not to mention

    The Rumble in The Jungle and Rope A Dope

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle

  2. #17
    ~high art~
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    636
    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKike View Post
    I do. Actually, I don't even know who are they latter two :S
    I mean, who?

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    237
    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKike View Post
    I do. Actually, I don't even know who are they latter two :S
    Yes, Ali! Amazing thing is, I don't think he was in his peak form when he faced Frazier or Foreman. IMO the Ali in black-and-white footages was even quicker and stronger.

    On the topic, Chan would definitely make my list if he win OGM with a strong performance. I find his LP this season mesmerizing.

  4. #19
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by thinspread View Post
    Yes, Ali! Amazing thing is, I don't think he was in his peak form when he faced Frazier or Foreman. IMO the Ali in black-and-white footages was even quicker and stronger.

    On the topic, Chan would definitely make my list if he win OGM with a strong performance. I find his LP this season mesmerizing.
    He wasn't.

    As a member of the Nation of Islam, which viewed the conflict in Vietnam as a white man's war that shouldn't be fought by America's oppressed, Ali asserted conscientious objector status when he was drafted--"I aint got no quarrel with the Viet Cong. No Vietcong ever called me N-----." His claim was initially denied by the courts, and Ali was stripped of his titles and boxing license during his peak years while his case made its way to the Supreme Court. When his claim was finally upheld, he was no longer the same boxer.

    He was old for a fighter, no longer had the middleweight's blinding speed, and so long away from the ring that he was probably more rust than steel. His wins against Smokin' Joe Frazier, who would come at you and come at you, and keep coming at you until you quit, and George Foreman, then a gigantic manchild with the most feared knockout punch in boxing, were not so much about the almost superhuman physical gifts of his youth, but about Ali's strength of mind and character. He learned how to gain subtle strategic, tactical, and psychological edges against his opponents. But none of these things would have worked without Ali's willingness to take inhuman amounts of physical punishment, often by design (the "Rope a Dope" strategy was nothing less than Ali allowing himself to be pummeled like a punching bag by the truly scary Foreman, so that Foreman's arms would literally be so worn down by fatigue that after a while Foreman was no longer able to swing).

    Ali's desire for championship glory took him far beyond the normal human boundaries of self-preservation. And that was both the legend and the tragedy of Ali. He regained the heavyweight title (on two separate occasions), and became, at one time, the most recognized person on the planet. Then, years after his retirement, came the progressive trembling and slurring of speech, Parkinson's syndrome caused, most likely, by the numerous blows to the head in this second half of his career. Once the most famous human being alive, he is now, by and large, a recluse.

    Back to topic: some of the questions I ask myself in assessing greatness (for any sport, really) are:

    -is (s)he a winner? (I will write "she" from now on, as the parentheses are tiresome). What was her winning percentage?
    -how many times/how long did she win?
    -did she win at the most important events?
    -did she display the ability to win under pressure?
    -did she win aganst the stiffest competition (relative to historical norms)?
    -did she dominate her competition? (Clearly, the ideal is to be dominant against the stiffest competition)
    -how good were her best performances? How bad were her worst performances?
    -did she set records that lasted?
    -did she accomplish feats that were seen for the first time, or whose quality was unmatched (at least for a while)?
    -did she break through barriers that broadened the outlook of the sport in some significant aspect?

    IMO, the names on the OP's list are a good start. I would definitely add Davis and White. Patrick should get there; a strong Olympic credential at Sochi should seal the deal.

    OTOH, I don't think either Hanyu or Lipnitskaia are good candidates yet. They are at the beginning of their careers. They are great talents, they show great potential, but their actual accomplishments are not yet in the category of "great".

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    237
    ^^ A great post on Ali, Robeye. BTW, congrats on your hometown team's clinching win at Fenway Park.

  6. #21
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    654
    Quote Originally Posted by thinspread View Post
    ^^ A great post on Ali, Robeye. BTW, congrats on your hometown team's clinching win at Fenway Park.
    Thanks . Yes, the duck boats will be strutting the parade route yet again this week. It's almost becoming routine, now. (NOT!!! hahaha)

    I pity the other major sports towns that aren't named Boston. How do they live with themselves?


    (Yes, I know I am being obnoxiously and annoyingly triumphalist, but that's what sports is all about . And after almost a century of living under the Curse, God knows we have reasons for self-indulgence)

  7. #22
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,108
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Great sports figures are remembered by whom they competed against, as well as for what they did, and could do themselves. One of the reason that Navka & Kostomarov are not immediately though of when we remember skaters & teams as greats (so far) is because the level of competition during their dominant years was not all that high.
    Well they were only top contenders for a few years and during that period of "dominance" many felt they should have been beaten by other teams - Denkova/Staviski and Delobel/Schoenfelder.

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,660
    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiKike View Post
    I do. Actually, I don't even know who are they latter two :S
    To me, it's what athletes accomplish after their sports career is over that keeps them in the public eye and makes them memorable. George Foreman makes the worlds greatest grill.

    http://thomascartron.com/wp-content/...ll-300x300.jpg

    George Foreman has five sons, all of them named George. He did this because when he was growing up he scarcely knew his father. He wanted to make sure that all of his sons knew who their father was.

  9. #24
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    The land of Agent Dale Cooper
    Posts
    9,352
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, it's what athletes accomplish after their sports career is over that keeps them in the public eye and makes them memorable. George Foreman makes the worlds greatest grill.

    http://thomascartron.com/wp-content/...ll-300x300.jpg

    George Foreman has five sons, all of them named George. He did this because when he was growing up he scarcely knew his father. He wanted to make sure that all of his sons knew who their father was.
    I don't know if it's the worlds greatest, but definitely ubiquitous! So many people in my college dorm had one!

  10. #25
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,753
    Of the ladies currently competing
    Both Asada and Kim are all time great. If Kostner can finally deliver clean programs at the Olympics, I would put her up there with Asada and Kim, too.
    Dai made the all time great even a few years ago. If Chan can skate cleanly, I think he should be all time great as well. I love his skating skills and his speed and flow across the ice.

    D/W, V/M are all time great.

    No current pairs are all time great. S/S are so sloppy for me. V/T are just good. No 3x3, no hard triples, no hard throws. Basically everything was good and they add up. Trankov is also a weak male pair skater compare to the males of all time great.

  11. #26
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    9,495
    Quote Originally Posted by Robeye View Post
    Thanks . Yes, the duck boats will be strutting the parade route yet again this week. It's almost becoming routine, now. (NOT!!! hahaha)

    I pity the other major sports towns that aren't named Boston. How do they live with themselves?


    (Yes, I know I am being obnoxiously and annoyingly triumphalist, but that's what sports is all about . And after almost a century of living under the Curse, God knows we have reasons for self-indulgence)
    My dear, you're entitled! Give yourself a few days of absolutely smug preening and strutting. For the World Series, that's an entirely suitable reaction.

    In terms of your earlier post, your list of criteria for greatness is a good one. On those terms, both YuNa and Mao belong on the roster. I'd love to add Davis/White for many of the reasons you cite, and because they've spearheaded, along with Virtue/Moir (and Belbin/Agosto a bit earlier) a flowering of North American ice dancing. The consistency and longevity of both these couples is especially admirable.

    I don't know a lot about boxing, but the little I know makes me agree with your evaluation. Years after their careers ended, Foreman spoke with great respect about Ali's sheer doggedness.

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    wherever life takes me
    Posts
    120
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well they were only top contenders for a few years and during that period of "dominance" many felt they should have been beaten by other teams - Denkova/Staviski and Delobel/Schoenfelder.
    Yes, I said it elsewhere, but both these teams were far more talented than N/K.

    I think naming V/M without D/W is riddiculous. Both teams have two World golds each. V/M do have three World silvers as opposed to D/W's two and a bronze, but that bronze is very questionable and only won by 0.04 i.e. nothing. D/W defeated V/M numerous times during the past couple of years and V/M have never managed to beat them at the GPF. So yeah, even if V/M do win in Sochi, D/W will still be remembered as the only ones actually capable of defeating those 2-time Olympic champions. And two Olympic silvers would still be quite an achievement.

    I think it is the rivalry between the teams that will go down in history. I strongly believe these teams are that great because they have each other. They have dominated the world of ice dance for 5 straight years. That alone makes both of them worthy of a place among all time greats and the thing they have been winning golds back-to-back makes it special and fascinating.

    Mao and Yuna definitely belong there too. Agreed also about Daisuke. Plush is there already.

    I am totally voting for S/S too. They have changed the sport, made it more interesting to watch, made programs more complex than simple crossovers from one element to another.
    V/T haven't been together long enough to get there IMO. Their mediocre programs and relatively safe jump selections don't help either.

    Chan is definitely NOT going to be there. Too many people are too annoyed with him winning despite messing up and falling to make him an all time great. He's just too controversial, regardless of his skating quality and number of titles.

  13. #28
    Matt K
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    334
    I don't buy into the notion/thought of some here, who are saying that one cannot be considered great without the other. Piggybacking off another rival's legacy should not be considered something of a great feat.
    As for controversy, if Davis/White become Olympic champions that will most likely be the most controversial decision in ice dancing history. (Current and past skaters/coaches and skating royalty would most likely agree, NBC/and the American media and fans will disagree of course). Besides, even if they win the Olympics, several ice dancers before them have done so too. Yet not all of them are remembered as among the greats.

  14. #29
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,660
    ^ ? Davis and White are the current favorites. It would hardly be controversial (though it might be boring) if they maintained their current lead throughout the season all the way to Sochi.

  15. #30
    Matt K
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    334
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ ? Davis and White are the current favorites. It would hardly be controversial (though it might be boring) if they maintained their current lead throughout the season all the way to Sochi.
    That is what is controversial.

    I certainly wouldn't be surprised if D/W win, but I think there will be a LOT of backlash over their win by the ice dancing community worldwide (with the exception of their fans (aka Goldenskate), NBC, and the American media).

Page 2 of 19 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •