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Thread: Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

  1. #61
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    I think this is like another thread recently.

    Great is so subjective. Great what? Athlete? Artist? Innovator? Not namy innovators left-it has all been done pretty much. I think S/S are great athletes but I dislike their programs so-no, not in the list of truly great pair teams like Rodnina/Zaitsev or G and G. Like saints and apparitions, I thin one must use great only after career is done.

    Exceptions might include the competitive record and persona of Plushenko. He's there for me. May Sochi add to his legend, not detract.

    If YuNa wins a second gold then yes, she is a great. I think I'd rather watch Janet Lynn skate, and Janet has an Oly bronze. But for me, that is great skating.

    I'd put D/W on that list even if they leave with two silver medals. They are brilliant and I hope they stay around a couple more years to rack up world titles.

    As far as great innovators-one only sees this in ice dance. CoP seems to not bring out innovation in singles. Zhang had a great spin, but the rest is not there, so how does one begin to use "great" I go with time/body of work/wins as the definers.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    sadly true. she does not move many people, too introverted, almost too shy to emote or play a character, even. but her technical brilliance/consistency is her card to those monster scores. she is perhaps lived too little of life to be an artist. if she skates many more years of shows, we may see more than her speed, big 3x3's. I love the person as she seems genuine. other than her public ange and sacking of orser, she has seemed humble despite her goddess stature in her country.

    try watching her EX in Vancouver. It gets better after a few watches. I think this was the most transparent and moved I ever saw from her. YuNa has her strong points and CoP and judges love her. I always found her overscored but I think it is needed to see her in person. The speed/huge jumps, and she is packaged well-pretty lady. That was Toller's big criticism-he was not moved. But Joannie stole the show and tears of the world. YuNa was crowned. I never agreed with 20 points over Mao-excessive. But when she is clean, she is unbeatable for sure.
    Very well said, skateluvr! ITA.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr
    Like saints and apparitions, I thin one must use great only after career is done.
    Good point. I don't know how some posters can say with such certainty who will be remembered as great and who will not. Only time will tell. Thanks for posting!

  3. #63
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I think this is like another thread recently.

    Great is so subjective. Great what? Athlete? Artist? Innovator? Not namy innovators left-it has all been done pretty much. I think S/S are great athletes but I dislike their programs so-no, not in the list of truly great pair teams like Rodnina/Zaitsev or G and G. Like saints and apparitions, I thin one must use great only after career is done.

    Exceptions might include the competitive record and persona of Plushenko. He's there for me. May Sochi add to his legend, not detract.

    If YuNa wins a second gold then yes, she is a great. I think I'd rather watch Janet Lynn skate, and Janet has an Oly bronze. But for me, that is great skating.

    I'd put D/W on that list even if they leave with two silver medals. They are brilliant and I hope they stay around a couple more years to rack up world titles.

    As far as great innovators-one only sees this in ice dance. CoP seems to not bring out innovation in singles. Zhang had a great spin, but the rest is not there, so how does one begin to use "great" I go with time/body of work/wins as the definers.
    Yuna needs two OGM to be considered "a great", but everyone from Janet Lynn to Plushenko is exempted from this requirement--they don't even need one OGM. Not only do you have a subjective criteria, you have a different one for each skater.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Yuna needs two OGM to be considered "a great", but everyone from Janet Lynn to Plushenko is exempted from this requirement--they don't even need one OGM. Not only do you have a subjective criteria, you have a different one for each skater.
    I don't see how having 2 OGMs would change skateluvr's opinion, anyway. I don't count Katarina Witt among the greats despite her 2 OGMs, yet even if Yuna somehow didn't win the gold I wouldn't hesitate to put her among the greats.

  5. #65
    Custom Title EricRohmer's Avatar
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    Krislite, do not have to bother.
    skateluvr would not praise fully & sincerely Yuna even though Yuna will win the gold in Sochi with great performances like in Vancouver.

  6. #66
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    I actually think that this is a really difficult question to answer if its about current skaters only as you just need to let a few your go by, to really remember someone. As long you see someone every week, you most likely wont forget him or her. But what if 10 years have gone by, will you still remember her / him? How will you know that without a time machine?

    If we remember things, then because they were special, unique and remarkable. To me this is not about medals, not about a score or a number of titles it is more about who you were competing with, what you did for figure skating or the skating scene in your country and maybe what type of element you came up with, just like your performance on the ice from a more "entertaining" perspective.

    As sad as it may sound, winning a medal many do - but how many will be remembered if not for that medal?

    There is a funny story about a short track guy from Australia that won the gold medal because all the short trackers in front of him crashed. He isn't remembered because of the gold medal, but because he won it like that. A total underdog, nobody expected him to win a medal - but he did it in that spectacular way in the last corner where all the others that were miles ahead crashed.

    Or if we come back to figure skating, look at Tugba Karademir. She never won a medal, but she will always be remembered as the Turk who just was there doing what she could do, representing her country with proud at the Olympics in 2006. Or Lipinski, she only competed at one Olympic games, but she still will be remembered as that tiny young girl, that just did it! Not because of that gold medal, but because of how it was done. She came, took the medal and was never seen again.


    Coming back to the current skaters such characters are hard to find. Yes we do have amazing skaters, they were already mentioned here in this thread, but how many do you think will be remembered by those who are not a fan of them? You don't need to be a fan of Witt, to remember her - she just did it in style, her Carmen performance is still considered as one of the best ever, or her skate 87 at Worlds. Not because of the difficulty, but because of her expression and grace on the ice throughout all those years.

    So yes, who will I remember?

    First comes to mind Olga Bestandigova and Ilhan Mansiz, because of that breathtacking performance at Nebelhorn, where they unfortunately did not qualify, but brought tears into the eyes of the spectators. Yes they have not won medals and he skated like a football player obviously, but they have won the hearts of the audience and if you win the heart then you stay there forever in my opinion.

    I know the OT spoke about "the greats", but I don't think that medals make you a "great" - maybe they do from a statistics point of view, it is always nice to say "I have won x amount of medals" "I have scored the most points" etc. but to really leave a footprint on the ice, someone needs more in my opinion.

    There are of course also a few other candidates, as for instance Tatiana who is considered as one of the best female pair skaters, Nathalie in Ice Dance or Nelly & Alexander for their original Programs, but as I said earlier that is nothing that is based on a score or medal - but on the personal contribution of someone to the sport.

  7. #67
    Gotta Have Music iluvtodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I do hope that Davis/White will be remembered as well, alongside Virtue/Moir.
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Curiously enough, if V&M are remembered as greats, it will be impossible not to remember D&W, too.

    If V&M win again in Sochi, D&W will still be remembered. After all, who can think about Muhammed Ali without thinking about Joe Frazier, not to mention George Foreman?

    If D&W win in Sochi, they will even more be remembered among the greats, for defeating great champions.
    Re: Muhammed Ali, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, it also makes me think of Brian Boitano & Brian Orser as the skating equivalent.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    sadly true. she does not move many people, too introverted, almost too shy to emote or play a character, even. but her technical brilliance/consistency is her card to those monster scores. she is perhaps lived too little of life to be an artist. if she skates many more years of shows, we may see more than her speed, big 3x3's. I love the person as she seems genuine. other than her public ange and sacking of orser, she has seemed humble despite her goddess stature in her country.
    Indeed. And I admire her donations/work for charity etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I always found her overscored but I think it is needed to see her in person. The speed/huge jumps, and she is packaged well-pretty lady. That was Toller's big criticism-he was not moved. But Joannie stole the show and tears of the world. YuNa was crowned. I never agreed with 20 points over Mao-excessive. But when she is clean, she is unbeatable for sure.
    Regarding the scoring, I usually have no problem with her wins - she delivers solid, clean programs under pressure and I think she deserves her medals. But sometimes the numbers... the margin of points... just seem crazy to me.

    I mean, take her Olympic world record scores:
    If her SP PCS score was multiplied by 1 (men's factor) instead of 0.8 (ladies factor), and her FS PCS score multipled by 2 (men) instead of 1.6 (ladies)... her total would have been 255.

    Such an overall score would have meant podium positions in the MENS competitions for:
    Olympics 2010 (Bronze, and very close to Gold)
    Worlds 2010 (Silver, close to Gold)
    Worlds 2011 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2012 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2013 (Bronze)
    etc etc etc

    Is her PCS really worth so much? I mean, so much that it overcomes the higher TES scores of men who are landing quads, 4+3 combinations, and multiple 3A's which she doesn't? Or are men's GOE's so bad that those big jumps don't give them a huge TES advantage? I don't get it. Same could be said of Asada's or Ando's 200+ scores.

    But I confess I am no kind of expert on judging. I just see performances that - although excellent - don't look like that much better than the silver medallists at some competitions. And it has to be said - if a skating enthusiast with at least basic knowledge struggles to understand the scoring... what hope for casual viewers? (Past scandals, and anonymous scoring don't exactly help confidence in the scoring either).

  9. #69
    Custom Title prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    I mean, take her Olympic world record scores:
    If her SP PCS score was multiplied by 1 (men's factor) instead of 0.8 (ladies factor), and her FS PCS score multipled by 2 (men) instead of 1.6 (ladies)... her total would have been 255.

    Such an overall score would have meant podium positions in the MENS competitions for:
    Olympics 2010 (Bronze, and very close to Gold)
    Worlds 2010 (Silver, close to Gold)
    Worlds 2011 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2012 (Bronze)
    Worlds 2013 (Bronze)
    etc etc etc

    Is her PCS really worth so much? I mean, so much that it overcomes the higher TES scores of men who are landing quads, 4+3 combinations, and multiple 3A's which she doesn't?
    Your thinking process is flawed. I am glad that you confess to not be an expert at the scoring and judging. You can't even explain why the women's PCS factor is set up to be half the men's. If you were able to, you would know that this is an inappropriate way to consider her scores.

  10. #70
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    (Kim) does not move many people,…
    She moves me. Her best performances, her long programs at the 2010 Olympics and 2013 Worlds, are simply jaw-dropping. That is what figure skating ought to be.

  11. #71
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Though not a fan, Witt is definitely a legend in the sport. Her popularity reached beyond the 2 OGMs. She was one of the most well-known skaters to the general public.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Though not a fan, Witt is definitely a legend in the sport. Her popularity reached beyond the 2 OGMs. She was one of the most well-known skaters to the general public.
    Her "timing" was also impeccable. First Olympic gold in Europe. Second in North America as the wall was coming down and popularity of the sport was so strong.

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    In reality, not in somebody's delusion, YuNa moves the most people as evidenced by the loudest reaction she often receives.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    Your thinking process is flawed. I am glad that you confess to not be an expert at the scoring and judging. You can't even explain why the women's PCS factor is set up to be half the men's. If you were able to, you would know that this is an inappropriate way to consider her scores.
    So help me out, please! Why IS the women's PCS factor set up that way? And why is it an innappropriate way to consider her scores?
    In my attempts to understand the arcane scoring system, and work out why scores are as they are... I have not seen this explained.

    Either tell me where I'm going wrong... or get off your high horse!

  15. #75
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    So help me out, please! Why IS the women's PCS factor set up that way? And why is it an innappropriate way to consider her scores?
    In my attempts to understand the arcane scoring system, and work out why scores are as they are... I have not seen this explained.

    Either tell me where I'm going wrong... or get off your high horse!
    there are hundreds of threads already about this topic with discussion/debates and it's endless..you should find it here.. before posting about something you don't know..

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