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Thread: Skaters who'll be remembered with time as among the greats

  1. #76
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    Not that it's of any importance, but I've been watching ice dancing since the 90s (and even remembering T/D from the 80s). I do know a thing or two about edgework, quality, lines, partnering, etc... And so do many others in the skating world who don't see D/W the wonderful way that you do
    And why so defensive? Who cares if you prefer V/M to D/W? (which I highly doubt, as I've read your posts too, and we both know that's not true ).


    FYI, I don't like to respond to D/W fan posts because stating anything critical of them is dismissed as hateful, trolling, whiny, crazy...Most of them don't seem to want to have an educated discussion about ice dancing, anyways.
    It is late but I apologize for my comments yesterday. I still don't understand your (still unsubstantiated) comments that D/W winning gold would be controversial, but I've looked back at some of your other posts in threads here, and calling you a troll was wrong.

    You are wrong too though and I do prefer V/M, at least in terms of how I conceptualize the word 'prefer'. I have been a huge fan of theirs since their early junior days and they remain one of only 4 or 5 teams or individuals who I was a fan of from the first time I saw them. I do believe that D/W have surpassed them, at least technically. I do sometimes enjoy watching D/W more now for a variety of reasons. I also think that D/W LP as it currently is is a better vehicle for OGM that V/M's as it currently is. I have said more than once I prefer V/M's short dance this year, though I have also said that V/M are not skating it up to snuff yet, which I stand by. However, confusing these things for a preference of D/W rather misses the point. I appreciate and respect both teams and I have what I think is a realistic grasp of both teams strengths and weaknesses. If I had to pick one team to go see live, or if I had to pick which team I've preferred during the past 10 years (around when I first saw both teams) or which team I consider myself more of a fangirl of, it is is V/M. If I had to pick my sentimental favorites, or which team I think has better artistry, connection, and line (which I personally continue to value HIGHLY despite COP) it's V/M. If I had to pick the team I think is currently better, under COP, or the team who I think is currently delivering better programs, I'd pick D/W. If you think that means I prefer D/W that that's what you think it means, but it's not what I think it means

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    there are hundreds of threads already about this topic with discussion/debates and it's endless..you should find it here.. before posting about something you don't know..
    Really? Search seems broken then. I type "pcs" in the search and get nothing. I type in "scoring" and get 19 random discussion threads, with only one that looks specifically relevant, but still does not explain such things.

    Well, I guess this is par for the course on an internet forum, and I should not be surprised. There's always plenty of people to tell others that they are wrong with no explanation, or in a derogatory tone that they know something that others don't know, or to do a (useless) search... and not so many helpful people.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    Really? Search seems broken then. I type "pcs" in the search and get nothing. I type in "scoring" and get 19 random discussion threads, with only one that looks specifically relevant, but still does not explain such things.

    Well, I guess this is par for the course on an internet forum, and I should not be surprised. There's always plenty of people to tell others that they are wrong with no explanation, or in a derogatory tone that they know something that others don't know, or to do a (useless) search... and not so many helpful people.
    Reminds me of a time - many years ago now - when I happened to be watching football (soccer) with one of my younger brothers, and it suddenly struck me that I didn't know and asked: "What is offside?" - at which my brother stared at me and said: "Don't you know?" with incredulous contempt. I didn't bother to pursue the matter...

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    Really? Search seems broken then. I type "pcs" in the search and get nothing. I type in "scoring" and get 19 random discussion threads, with only one that looks specifically relevant, but still does not explain such things.

    Well, I guess this is par for the course on an internet forum, and I should not be surprised. There's always plenty of people to tell others that they are wrong with no explanation, or in a derogatory tone that they know something that others don't know, or to do a (useless) search... and not so many helpful people.
    You are relatively new here, but I hope the longer you are here, you find there are plenty of people who are trying to explain the scores, both TES and PCS.

    I find the forum search feature isn't the best, so I don't think you should base how helpful people are on a search query. If you go to the Figure Skating Reference section of this forum (http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/for...ing-References) you'll find a lot of interesting and useful information.

    Regarding your question on why Yuna gets such high PCS. She has great speed and skating skills. Nice transitions and ice coverage into her elements. Her choreography isn't always the most creative, but she executes it well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Reminds me of a time - many years ago now - when I happened to be watching football (soccer) with one of my younger brothers, and it suddenly struck me that I didn't know and asked: "What is offside?" - at which my brother stared at me and said: "Don't you know?" with incredulous contempt. I didn't bother to pursue the matter...
    Similar story, but I got the stares of a whole roomful of people. I was in the TV room of my college dormitory, and a football game was on (American football). In college you're supposed to know about this game, because it's the ultimate college game. Just about every college has a team. In addition there are the professional teams that you're supposed to follow. Not me! I was a city girl and understood only baseball. What was going on on the TV screen that day seemed strangely static to me. Everyone did a lot of standing around on the field. At one point, the announcer said, "First down." A moment later, I asked, "What's a down?"

    You can't imagine the long-suffering looks everyone gave me. I thought they'd tell the administration that I didn't deserve to attend that college!

    After all those years, I still don't know what a down is, so don't ask. I have never watched an entire football game, either live or on TV. I don't root for a team. I'm so glad I found figure skating! Even when there's stuff I don't know or understand, I still love watching it.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    It is late but I apologize for my comments yesterday. I still don't understand your (still unsubstantiated) comments that D/W winning gold would be controversial, but I've looked back at some of your other posts in threads here, and calling you a troll was wrong.

    You are wrong too though and I do prefer V/M, at least in terms of how I conceptualize the word 'prefer'. I have been a huge fan of theirs since their early junior days and they remain one of only 4 or 5 teams or individuals who I was a fan of from the first time I saw them. I do believe that D/W have surpassed them, at least technically. I do sometimes enjoy watching D/W more now for a variety of reasons. I also think that D/W LP as it currently is is a better vehicle for OGM that V/M's as it currently is. I have said more than once I prefer V/M's short dance this year, though I have also said that V/M are not skating it up to snuff yet, which I stand by. However, confusing these things for a preference of D/W rather misses the point. I appreciate and respect both teams and I have what I think is a realistic grasp of both teams strengths and weaknesses. If I had to pick one team to go see live, or if I had to pick which team I've preferred during the past 10 years (around when I first saw both teams) or which team I consider myself more of a fangirl of, it is is V/M. If I had to pick my sentimental favorites, or which team I think has better artistry, connection, and line (which I personally continue to value HIGHLY despite COP) it's V/M. If I had to pick the team I think is currently better, under COP, or the team who I think is currently delivering better programs, I'd pick D/W. If you think that means I prefer D/W that that's what you think it means, but it's not what I think it means
    I like the nuanced nature of your post, tulosai.

    It's okay to appreciate skaters for different reasons. I don't understand what it has to be an either or. For me, I love D/W's athletic, dance with abandon style. I appreciate V/M's beautiful lines and fluidity. I think this quad has proven that both styles can thrive in Ice Dance. Why would people object to that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Similar story, but I got the stares of a whole roomful of people. I was in the TV room of my college dormitory, and a football game was on (American football). In college you're supposed to know about this game, because it's the ultimate college game. Just about every college has a team. In addition there are the professional teams that you're supposed to follow. Not me! I was a city girl and understood only baseball. What was going on on the TV screen that day seemed strangely static to me. Everyone did a lot of standing around on the field. At one point, the announcer said, "First down." A moment later, I asked, "What's a down?"

    You can't imagine the long-suffering looks everyone gave me. I thought they'd tell the administration that I didn't deserve to attend that college!

    After all those years, I still don't know what a down is, so don't ask. I have never watched an entire football game, either live or on TV. I don't root for a team. I'm so glad I found figure skating! Even when there's stuff I don't know or understand, I still love watching it.
    For the record:

    A first down is when you advance 10 yards toward the goal line. If you don't reach 10 yards, then you have three more chances. So a 2nd and 7, means that you reached 7 yards in the first attempt and have three more yards to go. If you do not reach 10 net yards within four attempts (or the team intercepts the ball during an attempt), possession goes to the other team.

    Think of downs as "plays" or "chances." At any given time you have four chances to advance a net 10 yards. When you get that 10 yards, the plays reset and you have four more chances to advance another 10 yards.

    I'm watching a lot more football these days because my home team (Seattle Seahawks) is doing so well!

  7. #82
    축복, 축도 RABID's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GF2445 View Post
    Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir for sure. So many memorable programs and moments...and the ups and downs, and the injuries, their perfectionism, their kiss and cry reactions (or non-reactions).

    They had it all!
    I was never into ice dance but lately, since the last Olympics, I have been watching due in part to Virtue and Moir being Canadian, as I am. However, even now when I watch others perform I think to myself, ok that was good so what is the big deal? Then I watch them skate and I remember and realize they are really, really good and the difference is plane to see even by someone like me not well versed in the nuances of the sport. They are a pleasure to watch and, to me, are the standard that all others should aspire to.

  8. #83
    can't come down to Earth prettykeys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    So help me out, please! Why IS the women's PCS factor set up that way? And why is it an innappropriate way to consider her scores?
    In my attempts to understand the arcane scoring system, and work out why scores are as they are... I have not seen this explained.

    Either tell me where I'm going wrong... or get off your high horse!
    My suggestion is for you to get off your high horse before applying flawed ideas and demanding answers, some I suspect you won't want. I will explain when I get off work but it really is a simple answer. In the meantime consider griping about another female's PCS that is highest ever, attained with technically flawed skates. But you won't.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    So help me out, please! Why IS the women's PCS factor set up that way?
    The factors for program component scores are set up to maintain the balance between Element Scores and Component Scores, so that one aspect of the performance does not dominate the other. For a short program, you might expect a man (with a quad and a triple Axel) to get TES of 45. If he has a nicely balanced program, he might get 45 in PCS also.

    In contrast, a lady might get TES of 36, but have the same raw scores for PCS as the man. So the ladies scores are factored by .8 to bring the TES and PCS into alignment. (.8 X 45 = 36.)

    For the long program, with twice as many elements a man might score 90 in TES. But he still has a raw PCS of only 45. So this is multiplied by 2, again to bring the PCS up to a par with TES. Correspondingly, the ladies scores are multiplied by 1.8.

    Here is how it might go for a man and a lady who both get straight 9's in PCSs

    Man SP: TES = 45, PCS = 45 (so far, so good ), total 90

    Lady SP: TES = 36, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 36, total 72

    Man LP: TES = 90, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 90, total 120

    Lady LP: TES =72, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 72, total 144.

  10. #85
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Similar story, but I got the stares of a whole roomful of people. I was in the TV room of my college dormitory, and a football game was on (American football). In college you're supposed to know about this game, because it's the ultimate college game. Just about every college has a team. In addition there are the professional teams that you're supposed to follow. Not me! I was a city girl and understood only baseball. What was going on on the TV screen that day seemed strangely static to me. Everyone did a lot of standing around on the field. At one point, the announcer said, "First down." A moment later, I asked, "What's a down?"

    You can't imagine the long-suffering looks everyone gave me. I thought they'd tell the administration that I didn't deserve to attend that college!

    After all those years, I still don't know what a down is, so don't ask. I have never watched an entire football game, either live or on TV. I don't root for a team. I'm so glad I found figure skating! Even when there's stuff I don't know or understand, I still love watching it.
    You have 4 tries (downs) to advance the ball ten yards. If you advance 10 (or more) yards you've made a "first down" and the process repeats itself. If you don't advance 10 yards in 4 tries the other team gets the ball.

    ETA - I should've continued reading as Mrs. P already answered your question. But I do have to say to Mrs. P BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! your team is poopy! Go Niners! (rival teams lol)

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The factors for program component scores are set up to maintain the balance between Element Scores and Component Scores, so that one aspect of the performance does not dominate the other. For a short program, you might expect a man (with a quad and a triple Axel) to get TES of 45. If he has a nicely balanced program, he might get 45 in PCS also.

    In contrast, a lady might get TES of 36, but have the same raw scores for PCS as the man. So the ladies scores are factored by .8 to bring the TES and PCS into alignment. (.8 X 45 = 36.)

    For the long program, with twice as many elements a man might score 90 in TES. But he still has a raw PCS of only 45. So this is multiplied by 2, again to bring the PCS up to a par with TES. Correspondingly, the ladies scores are multiplied by 1.8.

    Here is how it might go for a man and a lady who both get straight 9's in PCSs

    Man SP: TES = 45, PCS = 45 (so far, so good ), total 90

    Lady SP: TES = 36, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 36, total 72

    Man LP: TES = 90, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 90, total 120

    Lady LP: TES =72, PCS raw score = 45, PCS factored score = 72, total 144.
    Great explanation. See, plenty of helpful people on GS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    You have 4 tries (downs) to advance the ball ten yards. If you advance 10 (or more) yards you've made a "first down" and the process repeats itself. If you don't advance 10 yards in 4 tries the other team gets the ball.

    ETA - I should've continued reading as Mrs. P already answered your question. But I do have to say to Mrs. P BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! your team is poopy! Go Niners! (rival teams lol)
    If being "poopy" means having a 7-1 record....

    Though they were lucky on Monday. Some days they play like Super Bowl champions and other days....well...

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Great explanation. See, plenty of helpful people on GS.



    If being "poopy" means having a 7-1 record....

    Though they were lucky on Monday. Some days they play like Super Bowl champions and other days....well...

    they cheat by using the "12th Man"

  13. #88
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    PS. Specifically about Yuna Kim's PCS at 2013 Worlds, she got a raw score (that is, just take the five component scores and average them) of 46 for a program that has to rank as one of the most deftly executed ladies LPs of all time.

    In contrast, the men's LP winner, Denis Ten, got PCS raw score of 43.88 for a fine program executed well. So...

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    they cheat by using the "12th Man"


    But that game was in St. Louis.....

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post


    But that game was in St. Louis.....
    I'm referring to their win against the Niners earlier this year actually all of their home games... blah!

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