Men's Short Program: 2013 NHK Trophy

Clearly, Adam Rippon is a skater with much better skating and presentation skills than Mura and Oda, and more musicality and artistry than Javier Fernandez. Adam was *** heavily underscored on PCS! If Adam can just master that quad cleanly and not make any other minor or major mistakes, he should definitely move up in the scoring (and he could have placed second or third here in the sp, IMHO). Fernandez made a mistake and his sp is underwhelming (the costume confusing). Javi skated the program with no real relation to the music. It's a shame he picked that piece of music too without being able to come close to doing it justice (since Robin Cousins skated a memorable iconic exhibition to it). I agree there is reason to have Javi slightly behind both Oda and Rippon, and at the least he should not be ahead of them by 2 points. But once again, rep points come into play. Oda has great knees and he's a jumping machine, but he was not skating to or even coming close to interpreting the music. Oda's PCS skills are over-rated IMO because of his great jumping ability.

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I also think that Max Aaron deserved some higher scores to reflect the improvement he is showing in presentation. It is just not being recognized.

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caitie said:

While Adam's skating skills are noticeably better than Oda's

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Tonichelle said:

ooooo that's risky, skating to a piece that Robin Cousins made iconic.

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Mrs. P said:

1.) Javier Fernandez
2.) Nobunari Oda
3.) Daisuke Takahashi
4.) Max Aaron
5.) Adam Rippon


those are my predictions.

Max Aaron is going to cost me dearly if he doesn't have one of his famous FS comebacks. Otherwise, my podium skaters is correct (though places are wrong) and Adam is close.

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Art&Sport said:

Hmmm, based on your preferences of course.

Obviously, the scoring can turn out any result in the fp. The placements in the sp though prove how the judges are viewing these skaters rep-wise regardless of exactly how they performed. So, if everyone skates well, the placements are unlikely to change much, aside from perhaps Aaron and Abbott possibly moving up a bit with landed quads, but Abbott hasn't really been landing his -- Adam seems somehwat closer maybe. Menshov possibly could move too with landing his jumps, though he probably wouldn't receive much on PCS and someone has to come in last.

Seriously, with the quad requirements for men there are rarely clean performances. Even Machida at SA who you would think skated cleanly in both programs with his outszed marks, even he had a hand down in the fp.

Javi's a skater I generally like, but I don't like his sp choreo or costume this season. His choice of music is unfortunate because he isn't that great performing to it, especially in comparison to Robin Cousins. However, I understand why Orser has Javi doing something with a comic edge, like last year with Chaplin (in order to maybe help him relax and get into his performances). Javi has the build and charisma for classic programs but he hasn't seemed able yet to fully master the presentation and artistry that are so important for pulling off the classics. His quad is a thing of beauty when he lands it flawlessly.

Oda is an adorable teddy bear (and of course a talented jumper with knees to die for). Maybe that's part of his appeal for many fans? In any case, Oda does nothing for me. I respect his talent, but he's so overscored on PCS.

The other thing is that this is taking place in Japan, so if Oda and Takahashi have no mistakes, it seems they will podium. And it looks like the judges propped Javi up in second after the sp because of his current status as a World bronze medalist and proven quad-jumper.

I'll take a stab:

Takahashi
Rippon
Fernandez
Oda
Aaron
Abbott
Mura
Voronov
Menshov


It would be great though if Abbott could come ahead of Oda in the fp, but that's dreamland I suppose. It's not dreaming though to say that Abbott is a much more talented and complete figure skater than Oda, whilst Oda is technically a more confident jumper.

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snowflake said:

Why risky? I never saw that program and that was then. Do you mean that the judges saw it and compare it to Javier's? I think Javi did fine though the costume was distracting.

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Art&Sport said:

IClearly, Adam Rippon is a skater with much better skating and presentation skills than Mura and Oda, and more musicality and artistry than Javier Fernandez.

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Mathman said:

Gotta disagree on Oda. Oda's skating skills are far superior to Rippon's.

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Art&Sport said:

Interesting that Oda's quad was downgraded but on replay clearly rotated, and that Dai's was apparently under-rotated on replay but I guess no surprise that this was flubbed by the judges. I think politics and rep play into the scoring too, per usual.

Marveloso for Dai, clearly a master skater in many ways. I think the fact he always skates well in Japan helped him here. But the score I think is overly high, especially considering the under-rotation some feel there was on his quad on replays. I shouldn't be surprised, but again the judging leaves so much to be desired.

Clearly, Adam Rippon is a skater with much better skating and presentation skills than Mura and Oda, and more musicality and artistry than Javier Fernandez. Adam was *** heavily underscored on PCS! If Adam can just master that quad cleanly and not make any other minor or major mistakes, he should definitely move up in the scoring (and he could have placed second or third here in the sp, IMHO). Fernandez made a mistake and his sp is underwhelming (the costume confusing). Javi skated the program with no real relation to the music. It's a shame he picked that piece of music too without being able to come close to doing it justice (since Robin Cousins skated a memorable iconic exhibition to it). I agree there is reason to have Javi slightly behind both Oda and Rippon, and at the least he should not be ahead of them by 2 points. But once again, rep points come into play. Oda has great knees and he's a jumping machine, but he was not skating to or even coming close to interpreting the music. Oda's PCS skills are over-rated IMO because of his great jumping ability.

I also think that Max Aaron deserved some higher scores to reflect the improvement he is showing in presentation. It is just not being recognized. It seems that he needs to focus more on landing those quads to get due respect. IMHO, Mura and Voronov are not that much better than Max re presentation skills. The judges pick and choose erratically on those PCS categories. The scoring needs to be reformed.

Figure skating rips my heart out with its excesses and ineptitudes re scoring.

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FlattFan said:

Are you kidding?

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wordsworthgirl said:

I disagree and agree with the original poster- Art & Skate?- who said Adam is superior to Oda and Fernandez in overall quality. He is a more complete skater than either of them and has far greater musicality and extension. I heard a commentator recently describe Adam as being the most beautiful artistic skater in the world other than Chan, and although I'd put Daisuke up there above him, I agree that Adam is in an elite group of true artists on ice.

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Mathman said:

All of that may be true, but Oda still has the superior skating skills, and by a considerable margin, IMHO. At least eight of the nine judges agreed, and probably all nine (Oda's judge #1 is probably Rippon's judge #8. )

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Wordsworthgirl said:

Still, overall, per se, in general, Adam has better skating skills. Much better posture, line, extension, grace...

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Definition: Over all skating quality. Edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc), the clarity of technique, and the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

Criteria:

Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement,

Flow and effortless glide.

Rhythm, strength, clean strokes, and an efficient use of lean create a steady run to the blade and an ease of transfer of weight resulting in seemingly effortless power and acceleration.

Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns: The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps.

Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration. Variety is the gradation – some of which may be subtle.

Multi directional skating. Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions.

Mastery of one foot skating. No over use of skating on two feet.

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SaraM said:

Okay i never been a big Oda fan, but ive been watching replays of his combo and i still dont see how his 4t is UR...?! Clearly the judges are trying to hold him down and i dont understand why... poor guy, must be really demotivating for him, really hope he fights back in the fs... is there no way his team could complain about that score before the fs? Happened last week at CoC with Pechalat and Bourzata SD and that fall deduction...

Also really sad about max, so far this season hes the weakest of the us me and still not skatet one clean program...

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Mathman said:

Oh, my bad. I was talking about the component "Skating Skills," which is not about posture, grace, artistry, etc.

Here is the description of "Skating Skills," which I think is Oda's strongest area:

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wordsworthgirl said:

Oh, to clarify, I do think Oda performed better in this short program than Adam did- his performance was cleaner and more confident, with more energy and pizzazz than Adam's. Adam actually looked tentative. Did you notice when Adam came off, his coach said "I could see it was hard for you tonight, but you did good," indicating that this was not a soaring, flowing performance for Adam but rather one with a little shakiness and tentativeness. Still, overall, per se, in general, Adam has better skating skills. Much better posture, line, extension, grace. I know that amongst figure skating circles in the US he is regarded as one of the most beautiful and complete skaters we've ever produced- his issues are consistency and some technical things with jumps that Rafael has largely fixed.

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Skating Skills
Definition: Overall skating quality: edge control and flow over the ice surface demonstrated by a command of the skating vocabulary (edges, steps, turns, etc.), the clarity of technique and use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed.

Criteria:

Balance, rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, turns
Power/energy and acceleration
Mastery of multi-directional skating (CW/CCW + FWD/BKWD)
Mastery of one-foot skating (LESS CROSS OVERS TO ACHIEVE SPEED/ACCELERATION/FLOW = GOOD)
Equal mastery of technique by both partners shown in unison (pairs and ice dancing)
Balance in skating ability of individual skaters (synchronized)

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