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Thread: All time Olympic podiums and top 5

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    It's ironic that her program would have scored even higher in the following four Olympics, even though the technical bar was raised substantially. She would not be getting 5.5-5.7 for artistry if compared to Tara or Sarah.
    The reason she got those scores was not whom she was competing against. It was that due to figures she wasn't in the final flight of events, and she also didn't have the rep power yet (again mostly due to figures which had kept her results down for years). The thinking of judging in the 3 portion competition days was totally different than the post figures era. Had the event been under 91 rules with the same skaters and performances, you would definitely not see 5.5s and 5.6s for artistry either.

  2. #17
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    The thinking of judging in the 3 portion competition days was totally different than the post figures era.
    Totally different meaning totally wrong. And it's still how a lot of judging goes. Just latching onto reputation/momentum/politics to place skaters.

    Midori could have won 1988 Olympics even with her poor figures result:

    10th in Figures, 1st in SP, 1st in LP = 3.7 weighted grade, highest tiebreaker

    Liz Manley = 5th in Figures, 6th in SP, 2nd in LP = 3.7 weighted grade, 2nd highest tiebreaker

    Katarina Witt = 4th in Figures, 5th in SP (a case can most definitely be made for all of the American ladies scoring above her here), 3rd in the LP = 3.7 weighted grade, 3rd highest tiebreaker

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Totally different meaning totally wrong. And it's still how a lot of judging goes. Just latching onto reputation/momentum/politics to place skaters.
    I never said it was right, now did I. I am just saying had it been post figures, she would have gotten marks closer to what she actually deserved, even with the same competition and same skaters. It wasn't so much that she was competing against the supposably so artistic Witt that kept her artistic marks that low, it was all the things that went into the figures era scoring, and that she was never skating in final flights.

    Trenary's short program was pretty weak btw. I don't think she could be placed over either Witt or Manley there.

    There was no real coverage of the figures so it is hard to say where the skaters should have placed. An article I read at the time claimed Kadavy choked on her last figure which dropped her from 3rd to 7th. Trenary was 5th, but is possible to believe her figures would be better than someone like Witt who came 3rd but generally was held up in figures. Someone like Leistner who was 6th possibly too, as she generally had very strong figures, and probably were often legitimately stronger than Witt's were.

  4. #19
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    OK, I'll play:

    Men:
    Gold - John Curry
    Silver - Yagudin
    Bronze - Boitano

    Women:
    Gold - Dorothy Hamill
    Silver - Kim
    Bronze - Fleming

    Pairs

    Gold - Protopopovs
    Silver - G/G
    Bronze B/S

    Dance

    Gold - K/P
    Silver - T/D
    Bronze - U/Z (my only non OGM winner; they wuzrobbed)

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Totally different meaning totally wrong. And it's still how a lot of judging goes. Just latching onto reputation/momentum/politics to place skaters.

    Midori could have won 1988 Olympics even with her poor figures result:

    10th in Figures, 1st in SP, 1st in LP = 3.7 weighted grade, highest tiebreaker

    Liz Manley = 5th in Figures, 6th in SP, 2nd in LP = 3.7 weighted grade, 2nd highest tiebreaker

    Katarina Witt = 4th in Figures, 5th in SP (a case can most definitely be made for all of the American ladies scoring above her here), 3rd in the LP = 3.7 weighted grade, 3rd highest tiebreaker
    Manley also easily could have won gold too though.

  6. #21
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Trenary's short program was pretty weak btw. I don't think she could be placed over either Witt or Manley there.
    Kadavy, Trenary, Thomas, and Witt were pretty much equal to me in the SP, but I'd rank them in that order if forced. Midori Ito was CLEARLY the best and Manley was clearly 6th to me (she had the least interesting program and rushed through it, failing to capture any nuances of the music).

    Let's compare Trenary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MqqEmxAQ_c) and Witt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9m1Z9Izcpg):

    On the jump combo I'd score them equally. Trenary's combination was not as clean, but it was much more difficult.

    On the double axel, I'd again score them equally. Trenary's landing edge wasn't ideal, but it was bigger and had more flow-out.

    Double Flip definitely goes to Trenary. It's bigger and has a difficult air position.

    Footwork, Camel-change-Camel, and Flying Spins are pretty much equal. Trenary has a better position in the camel, but also travels a little.

    Witt has a slight advantage on the combination spin. It's easier than Trenary's, but cleaner.

    So in comparing their technical score, it pretty much comes down to the combination spin vs double flip. Trenary had the second best double flip of all the ladies and Witt's was completely average. I'll take that over Witt's slightly better combination spin.

    Of course, that is just the technical breakdown. However, in terms of presentation, I would also give Trenary a slight edge. She had excellent speed (second only to Midori Ito) and her edges were stronger than Witt's. Trenary is giving more energy than Witt in this performance, although because of the couple small bobbles that interrupt the flow, I wouldn't say she gave a better performance. I find the choreography and interpretation of the programs to be pretty much equal. Witt does have more transitions in her program, so it becomes a question of if you prefer more movement vs faster movement and deeper edges. I'll take the latter in this case.

  7. #22
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    T&D OSP Paso Doble (audience explodes even before dance is quite done) The whole place is vibrating with excitement
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsHt7DRxpxA

    K&P Polka OSP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox56BZ2Wx5g
    Notice how much the audience is not into this dance (I was part of that audience, so I can vouch)
    Despite Canadian commentator commending the ballroom feel, K&P twidgetted back and forth between making fun of folk dancing polka people and trying to do the ballroom polka they were supposed to be doing.

    K&P are far behind T&D in the OSP. Coincidentally, V&M and D&W are doing folk dance in their Olympics, and they definitely outscore K&P on my scorecard in this part of the competition.
    That makes K&P no better than 4th in the OD/OSP phase of competition. They would have to make up a lot of ground in the FD, and it was on a par with Bolero, but not as audience engrossing as Bolero.

    If you want to see a ballroom polka,Winkler & Lohse's was good, as was Davis & White's Giselle, and the polka part of Die Fledermaus. It does not involve funny faces. Despite V&M having declared their massive distaste for polka, V&M's 2012 polka was better than K&P's.
    I agree that K/P OD was not as great as T/D's (but I think that, even if it didn't give a great ballrom Polka feeling, there were a couple of VERY interesting moments and difficult transitions)... As you can understand, I based my ranking mainly on the FD
    So, if we want to have a "complete competition" scored, here it is for me:
    OD/OSP
    1) Torvill/Dean 1994
    2) Torvill/Dean 1984
    3) Krylova/Osvyannikov 1998
    4) Virtue/Moir 2010
    5) Davis/White 2010
    6) Klimova/Ponomarenko 1992 (maybe 7th, not sure about G/P 1998 placement)

    FD
    1) Klimova/Ponomarenko 1992
    2) Torvill/Dean 1984
    3) Krylova/Osvyannikov 1998
    4) Virtue/Moir 2010
    5) Usova/Zhulin 1994

    So, now we have to choose how to mix the two rankings

  8. #23
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I like K/P's 1991 LP better than their 1992 actually...

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    ^ I would say the other no-brainer is Yagudin winning under CoP and 6.0 with his 2002 performances. He essentially had the goods to produce level 4 spins if he needed to, his artistry would have been held in higher regard than most skaters, and the fact that he did 2 quads in his FS would likely place him ahead of anyone else, points-wise (perhaps Goebel's 2002 FS might have matched his TES score in the FS with the 3 quads, including the one in the bonus, but he'd easily win on PCS).
    You are really funny CSG! Yes CSG is CSG!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I agree that K/P OD was not as great as T/D's (but I think that, even if it didn't give a great ballrom Polka feeling, there were a couple of VERY interesting moments and difficult transitions)... As you can understand, I based my ranking mainly on the FD
    So, if we want to have a "complete competition" scored, here it is for me:
    OD/OSP
    1) Torvill/Dean 1994
    2) Torvill/Dean 1984
    3) Krylova/Osvyannikov 1998
    4) Virtue/Moir 2010
    5) Davis/White 2010
    6) Klimova/Ponomarenko 1992 (maybe 7th, not sure about G/P 1998 placement)

    FD
    1) Klimova/Ponomarenko 1992
    2) Torvill/Dean 1984
    3) Krylova/Osvyannikov 1998
    4) Virtue/Moir 2010
    5) Usova/Zhulin 1994

    So, now we have to choose how to mix the two rankings
    I guess I am in the minority but I loved K&P's 92 Polka. I remember CBC commentators Martini and Underhill did not like it at the Games, but loved it at Worlds. CBS commentator Tracy Wilson raved about it at the Games. I liked that it was a non traditional Polka and they performed it with such humor, charm, expression, along with great technical difficulty, original choreography, speed, and execution.

    I thought U&Z's 94 Olympic FD was horrible and their worst program ever. Frankly they had to be quite bad to lose the OGM as reigning World Champions to their own teammates, Russian #2. Remember how ice dance worked then, so their defeat showed just how bad they were that year.

    I guess this all just goes to show ice dance is by far the most subjective event. Technical abilities have some objective merit, but beyond that it is just a choice of style.

  11. #26
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    MEN

    Gold- Yagudin 2002
    Silver- Boitano 1988
    Bronze- Goebel 2002 (very underrated Long Program)
    4th- Plushenko 2006
    5th- Takahashi 2010

    WOMEN

    Gold- Midori Ito 1988 (nobody has ever blown the field away to this extent)
    Silver- Tara Lipinski 1998
    Bronze- Michelle Kwan 1998
    4th- Yu Na Kim 2010
    5th- Sarah Hughes 2002

    DANCE

    Gold- Torvill & Dean 1984
    Silver- Torvill & Dean 1994
    Bronze- Anissina & Peizerat 2002
    4th- Virtue & Moir 2010
    5th- Davis & White 2010

    PAIRS

    Gold- Belousova & Protopopov 1968
    Silver- Gordeeva & Grinkov 1988
    Bronze- Sale & Pelletier 2002
    4th- Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze 2002
    5th- Ina & Zimmerman 2002
    Thank you for putting in Midori! How can she be left out?? I am so curious about your ladies rankings, though. You think Tara's program was more impressive than Yuna's? I know you have always defended Tara's win and so have I but it's hard for me to think of Tara as the same category as Yuna. I was so astonished that Yuna could pull off two such perfect programs under so much pressure that I would just have to rank her first. Nerves of steel doesn't describe it. It was superhuman.

  12. #27
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    I cant imagine Tara from Nagano ever beating Yu Na from Vancouver in an actual competition, be it 6.0 or COP. If a time machine were ever invented I would bet tons of money on it in fact, even at 10-1 odds, and only 10% winnings be available. However Blades of Passion might have just been going in order of his "personal preference" as opposed to how the competition would turn out.

    I find Goebel of Salt Lake City over Plushenko in Turin even stranger though. I cant even begin to wrap my head around that one. Both had lots of spectacular quads, and all of Plushenko's other jumps and the rest of his skating (even in a cautious and going through the motions state like he was in for the Turin LP) is light years beyond Goebel, who I actually liked but lets be honest is truly one of the worst basic skaters to ever reach the World podium and relied totally on his quad abilities.

  13. #28
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    You think Tara's program was more impressive than Yuna's?
    Tara, Michelle, and Hughes all gave better performances and had better choreography and interpretation than Yu-Na. That program was inorganic and never more than the sum of its parts. She delivered wonderfully in terms of technical merit, but the whole thing was mostly just concentrated on the elements. There were little bits of character sprinkled throughout the program, but nothing particularly evocative or emotional. Her footwork sequence in particular was quite the time waster. 30 seconds of superficially "nice" steps and turns around the ice that don't have much to do with the music or any greater choreographic idea and weren't exciting on their own either. And look at how she ends the program, mechanically going through that "I" spin and then just blankly putting her hands up with no enthusiasm.

    I'd have Yu-Na ahead of Hughes overall because of the SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I find Goebel of Salt Lake City over Plushenko in Turin even stranger though. I cant even begin to wrap my head around that one. Both had lots of spectacular quads, and all of Plushenko's other jumps and the rest of his skating (even in a cautious and going through the motions state like he was in for the Turin LP) is light years beyond Goebel, who I actually liked but lets be honest is truly one of the worst basic skaters to ever reach the World podium and relied totally on his quad abilities.
    No, both did not have a lot of spectacular quads. Plushenko had ONE quad. His program was heavily front-loaded and had barely any choreography, whereas Goebel had many transitions and some of them were particularly difficult (spread eagle into 3Axel, hydroblade into 3Loop). Goebel's choreography was pleasing and well-balanced, and interpreted the music very well. Plushenko had his usual flashy appeal and command of the performance, but even his speed was less than usual.

  14. #29
    Custom Title EricRohmer's Avatar
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    Yuna's Gershwin step sequence(04:55~).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6RkZhYd2ms


    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    just blankly putting her hands up with no enthusiasm.
    Her Gershwin ending is different from her Les Mis ending in the intent etc.

  15. #30
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    Here is my list:

    Pairs:

    1. Protopopovs 1968.
    2.Gordeeva/Grinkov 1988.
    3.Mishkutionok/Dmitriev 1994. (when they did NOT win).

    Men:
    1. John Curry 1976. (I never seen anything more perfect compair to the actual standard ever since).
    2.Alexei Yagudin 2002.
    3.Brian Boitano 1988.

    Ladies:
    1.Yu-Na Kim 2010.
    2.Mao Asada 2010.
    3. Shizuka Arakawa 2006.

    Dance:
    1.Torvil/Dean 1984.
    2.Klimova/Ponomarenko 1992.
    3.Virtue/Moir 2010., Pahomova/Gorskov 1976., and Torvil/Dean 1994. in an indecideable tie....

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