Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 80

Thread: Asada's 3A: underrotated or not?

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    332
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilvskating View Post
    Let's face this: Mao has better rotations than quite a few men's 3A that got justified, including the same event for Dai's. Just because she is a girl and she got the extra scrutiny.
    I don't think that guys should get a pass either. Also, Mao didn't get scrutinized more than guys do, but rather the opposite: landed=perfect, as to where guys need more than just a landing to say "perfect".
    Quote Originally Posted by skatel80 View Post
    I really wish people would stop with the skid=cheat nonsense, There is nothing wrong with the quarter rotation skid on maos 3a take off, it is a perfectly acceptable axel take off. Anyone who says its cheating has clearly got no understanding of jump mechanics, it is almost impossible to do a 3a with no skid, a clean edge take off often results in an axel that tips out of the circle (Adelina Sotnikovas 2a is an example of this) a slight skid on an axel take off is good.
    Skids shouldn't be acceptable because jump revolutions get power from takeoff. If skids counted as part of jump revolutions, so should the twizzles. I agree skids are often inevitable for many skaters prior to takeoff. However, 3A is harder than other triples becuase it rotates 3.5 (+/-qtr) rev., not 3.0 (+/- qtr), and that extra 0.5 rev. should be made up in the air; otherwise, 3A would be nothing more than a 3.0 rev. edge jump, only distinguished by the forward takeoff. Same for all other jumps; revolutions should count in the air.

    I know this topic makes Mao sound bad, which makes me feel bad. It has been an ongoing topic throughout her senior career, and I just wish her team had focused on her other jumps earlier on - which then she would've been more successful, as her potential had suggested.
    Last edited by bebevia; 11-09-2013 at 04:47 PM. Reason: grammar?

  2. #17
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    989
    Quote Originally Posted by bebevia View Post
    I don't think that guys should get a pass either. Also, Mao didn't get scrutinized more than guys do, but rather the opposite: landed=perfect, as to where guys need more than just a landing to say "perfect".
    Have you seen any thread where Mao lands a 3A? Half the next page is usually filled with people saying "cheated" or "<<" even when it's clean.

    Quote Originally Posted by bebevia View Post
    Skids shouldn't be acceptable because jump revolutions get power from takeoff. If skids counted as part of jump revolutions, so should the twizzles. I agree skids are often inevitable for many skaters prior to takeoff. However, 3A is harder than other triples becuase it rotates 3.5 (+/-qtr) rev., not 3.0 (+/- qtr), and that extra 0.5 rev. should be made up in the air; otherwise, 3A would be nothing more than a 3.0 rev. edge jump, only distinguished by the forward takeoff. Same for all other jumps; revolutions should count in the air.

    I know this topic makes Mao sound bad, which makes me feel bad. It has been an ongoing topic throughout her senior career, and I just wish her team had focused on her other jumps earlier on - which then she would've been more successful, as her potential had suggested.
    No "three revolution jump" is actually 3 revolutions in the air. Every time this is brought up, someone mentions how loops and Salchows are usually done with a 1/2 turn on takeoff, and the toe jumps around that. The premise of your "revolutions should count in the air" argument is faulty.

    Nor do any men actually do a triple Axel with 3.5 revolutions in the air.

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    7,524
    Mao's 3a in the FS was officially <. Three judges gave her -2 GOE, five gave her -1 and one (guess who) gave her -3.

  4. #19
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,968
    Quote Originally Posted by skatel80 View Post
    I really wish people would stop with the skid=cheat nonsense, There is nothing wrong with the quarter rotation skid on maos 3a take off, it is a perfectly acceptable axel take off.
    She doesn't skid a 1/4 turn, she skids a 1/2 turn.

    But that's okay. All jumps can pre-rotate a 1/2 turn and be considered acceptable.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,930
    Two out of four of her attempts of the 3 ax in the gp series have been officially called ur's and her scores for two have been around 4 and 3. I really don't understand her obsession with this jump.

  6. #21
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    589
    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Two out of four of her attempts of the 3 ax in the gp series have been officially called ur's and her scores for two have been around 4 and 3. I really don't understand her obsession with this jump.
    Do you ask the same question about man and quads? Because this season so far a lot attempts have been unsucessfull.

  7. #22
    ~high art~
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    636
    Called or not, they're all underrotated. SA and NHK, short program and free skate. Different "attempts" but the rotations are all about the same, it isn't really worth your time to watch them under the microscope. It looks ugly, and it's URed.

    Last time she (borderline) rotated it was at 2013 4CCs SP.

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,106
    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    ..it isn't really worth your time to watch them under the microscope.
    Amen.

    On to TEB.

  9. #24
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    115
    In the 2013 GPF thread, there are lots of posts on Asada's jumps. Thus, I scrutinized her jumps in this GPF.

    1. Asada's 3A in SP

    gliding, start, start2, start3, takeoff, landing, landing2

    2. Asada's 1st 3A in FS

    start, start2, takeoff, landing, landing2, landing3

    (from a differnt angle) start, start2, takeoff, landing, landing2, landing3

    3. Asada's 2nd 3A in FS

    start, start2, takeoff, landing, landing2, landing3

    Given the pictures above, she looked to rotate 3 revolutions in the air when she jumped 3A in this GPF.
    The skid is an acceptable technique for 3As, but it doesn't mean only 3 revolutions in the air are needed for 3As.

    In light of judging on Asada's 3A in SP, her 1st 3A in FS also should have been downgraded, IMO.

    I think the definition of 3A tends to be changed during the ladies events.
    A Perfect 3A should be like this: start, takeoff, landing (Watch the icemark.)

    In addition, Asada's 3T in FS looked underrotated to me.

    start, start2, toepick, takeoff, landing

  10. #25
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    1,148
    See that? Mao's 3A in the short was rotated enough to warrant a full credit. Stupid caller.

  11. #26
    Custard Title
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    989
    LOL? Asada's 3A is obviously inferior to and less rotated than Hanyu's, but while you took a screenshot of when Asada's toepick hit the ice, you waited until Hanyu's blade was solidly landed to take the SS. Hanyu's 3A is as close to ideal as anyone's, and saying Asada's 3A must be equal to the best of the men in order to get any credit is ludicrous when someone like Lysacek could get every one of his triple Axels credited with an even more cheated takeoff.

    And saying that only 3 revolutions in the air are needed is quite reasonable when most of the other 5 triples require only 2.25 revolutions to get credited. As Asada had 3 solid revolutions in the air, her SP 3A absolutely deserved credit, although it would never deserve to be showered with +GOE.

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    115
    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    And saying that only 3 revolutions in the air are needed is quite reasonable when most of the other 5 triples require only 2.25 revolutions to get credited. As Asada had 3 solid revolutions in the air, her SP 3A absolutely deserved credit, although it would never deserve to be showered with +GOE.
    You seems to have a different rule book. An underrotated jump has “missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”. A downgraded jump has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”.

  13. #28
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    976
    Quote Originally Posted by szidon
    You seems to have a different rule book. An underrotated jump has “missing rotation of more than ¼, but less than ½ revolutions”. A downgraded jump has “missing rotation of ½ revolutions or more”.
    Your quote misses the additional part "on the landing". More than 1/4 roataion on the landing missing = UR call. More than 1/2 = downgrade.
    Jumps have pre-rotation too though. At least 1/4 is allowed, for a 3A, I think it's even 1/2 rotation. So 3 full rotations is definitly enough for a 3A to get ratified.

    Huge big fat at you comparing Asadas 3A to Hanyus, of all people. Yeah, absolutly nobody who doesn't have a 3A like Hanyu should get credit for this jump

  14. #29
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    921
    Might as well compare her 3A to Ilia Kulik's delayed 3A....

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    332
    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Your quote misses the additional part "on the landing". More than 1/4 roataion on the landing missing = UR call. More than 1/2 = downgrade.
    Jumps have pre-rotation too though. At least 1/4 is allowed, for a 3A, I think it's even 1/2 rotation. So 3 full rotations is definitly enough for a 3A to get ratified.

    Huge big fat at you comparing Asadas 3A to Hanyus, of all people. Yeah, absolutly nobody who doesn't have a 3A like Hanyu should get credit for this jump
    ...So, you can start pre-rotate forward, take off backward? That's called a loop.

    Standards of execution may vary depending on difficulty, but the standard of form shouldn't. What we call UR in 2A should apply to 3A, otherwise 3A shouldn't be called 3A - which I'm fine with, BTW, as I endorse various forms of jumps (half-axels should be ratified as eligible jumps). Also, guys too should be marked on the UR if applicable; I'm not against that either.

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •