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Thread: Are I/K done after falling again?

  1. #181
    Custom Title chapis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    It has been discussed that Elena was watching Nikita because there no trust from her that he can do it. No trust - no partnership! Chock and bates already have trust that's why there already better than I/k and that's a team that didn't exist when i/k were at their jr best.
    Yes, it looked as she was watching him and got distracted. But it is normal that one partner is looking the other to follow him/her, right?

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by chapis View Post
    Yes, it looked as she was watching him and got distracted. But it is normal that one partner is looking the other to follow him/her, right?
    Normal to be aware of course but not to the point of falling! But if there is falling its bad and reminds me of couples that have broken up.

  3. #183
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    I noticed they lost to C and L but under two points despite a fall. If anything this should give them hope. C and L were looking to be world bronze medallists. I and K just closed the gap if anything.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Normal to be aware of course but not to the point of falling! But if there is falling its bad and reminds me of couples that have broken up.
    Pechalat & Bourzat - Fabian fell at 2011 World Championships, Virtue & Moir - Scott fell in short dance 2011/12 season, Davis & White - Charlie fell twice at COR 2008, Cappellini & Lanotte - Anna fell at World Championships 2010 (she alredy fell some seasons before in short dance), Stepanova & Bukin - she fell this season at Scate Canada during lift and Ivan fell during twizzles in short dance at JGPF 2011...and many other falls made by couples. Every couple we are watching now fell once...or twice...or more time...and most of them stayed together.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by chapis View Post
    Yes, it looked as she was watching him and got distracted. But it is normal that one partner is looking the other to follow him/her, right?
    It is important to control synchronisation, so one partner is slightly watching other one, but in this couple it is always Nikita who is looking at Lena and control synchro, Lena skates on his own.

    It was her mistake in concentration, she started to think about him instead of concentrating on her own element, which caused that she did technical mistake and fell. Lena's protectors can say that it was because Nikita was struggling, but he is struggling always (even in short dance he was in trouble with twizzles, but no so much like in free dance) and Lena was watching him just this time. It was Lena's concentration which went down and caused the fall. If she would do the same in other element, in lift, for example, she could possibly fall as well (so it is better that she rather did it in twizzles), in spin - it could lead to similar mistake like they made at World Championships 2013.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchie View Post
    How about the speed of rotation during twizzles? Zhiganshina/Gazsi are (veeery!) slow in that, despite their speed across the ice being normal. I'm always surprised that they still get good marks for their twizzles (if they get the levels, and if their unison is ok - which it often is not).
    Wouldn't that decrease the chances of mistakes?
    Speed of rotation – I&K has the same speed of rotation like many other good or great couples (and Stepanova & Bukin have even faster speed of rotation). If you have good technique and edges, it would be difficult to make more slower speed of rotation. Nikita few times mentioned that they don’t have a synchro in twizzles because he is permanently faster in rotation during last turns, and it is true – it was already seen many times, for example at Russian Nationals in free dance – he was faster in rotation in all three sets (still struggling technically in first set, while second set was technically quite OK and third set almost stopped him – watching his blades) – which leads to think that his edges are better and his arm’s work which helps into rotations is better as well, while his technique for that element is worse comparing to Lena.
    Every couple uses speed of rotation which works well for them… and good skating skills means better technique and faster speed of rotation in moment when the skater does everything well technically. If you would try to persuade Nikita and Lena to more slower speed in rotations there would be even more mistakes in that element, I guess.

    Zhiganshina & Gazsi, the couple is entertaining and try to bring something new every year, it is nice. From technical point, they are average couple. Their technique is not good. Not only in twizzles but in other elements also. Their twizzles are slow, it looks like they would disconnect every half turn in twizzles, it sometimes looks like that there are almost small jumps from one half turn to another (and they are doing it also in simple turns during the rest of skating). I would try to guess that maybe that separation of half turns leads to slow speed of rotation, or definitely it is caused by average skating skills. And yes, their unison is not good very often. If they get high mark for skating skills or high mark for twizzles or step sequences - I don’t think it would be OK.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Pechalat & Bourzat - Fabian fell at 2011 World Championships, Virtue & Moir - Scott fell in short dance 2011/12 season, Davis & White - Charlie fell twice at COR 2008, Cappellini & Lanotte - Anna fell at World Championships 2010 (she alredy fell some seasons before in short dance), Stepanova & Bukin - she fell this season at Scate Canada during lift and Ivan fell during twizzles in short dance at JGPF 2011...and many other falls made by couples. Every couple we are watching now fell once...or twice...or more time...and most of them stayed together.
    I forgot the main issue. If she has a lack of trust and that's why she started to watch him that's just no good. Why did she lose concentration so badly during the twizzles? If she can't trust him then its over

    D/w haven't made any mistakes in 5 years now!

    EC 2012 sd was another example of disaster from I/k. 2013 worlds. 2013 NHK. 2014 Russian nationals, 2011 Russian nationals, COR 2010, etc. all of them had huge mistakes. It's competitons like this disaster that brings up how bad they are as a team that can fulfill potential. It's seems they have already reached their ceiling and are in a shocking spiral where they are getting worse and worse and not working as a team at all in any way and is destined to be overtaken by many teams including teams that were created after their pairing like chock and bates.

  8. #188
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    If they can Elena (19) is going to be youngest olympic ice dance medalist after Klimova. (17) They are most promising young team we have. Other teams like Shibutanis, Chock/Bates, Gilles/Poirier, Papadakis/Cizeron had to work hard for Ilinykh/Katsalapov's skating skils alone. They are so much better than older teams too. For example their skating skills are better than Pechalat/Bourzat and Weaver/Poje. Plus that they can sell every program, even Ghost. How can one say they are falling behind other teams I don't understand. Had a fall, lost a level and you are done.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    I forgot the main issue. If she has a lack of trust and that's why she started to watch him that's just no good. Why did she lose concentration so badly during the twizzles? If she can't trust him then its over.
    I think trust issues aside, if you notice in the corner of your eye that your partner has a serious wobble, it distracts you. Katsalapov was having trouble in his Twizzle, and Ilinykh was distracted by noticing that. In addition to "oh no, I hope he gets through", there must be some reflex of fearing he might "twizzle into her".

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Other teams like Shibutanis, Chock/Bates, Gilles/Poirier, Papadakis/Cizeron had to work hard for Ilinykh/Katsalapov's skating skils alone. They are so much better than older teams too. For example their skating skills are better than Pechalat/Bourzat and Weaver/Poje. Plus that they can sell every program, even Ghost. How can one say they are falling behind other teams I don't understand. Had a fall, lost a level and you are done.
    I agree that younger teams you mentioned doesn't have that good skating skills, they still have to work on it. But as well first six Russsian couples have better skating skills than those couples you mentioned above and nobody congratulates them to it.

    While I&K have better skating skills than Weaver or Pechalat, Riazanova and Sinitsina also have better skating skills than Weaver and Pechalat. Especially it is very obvious in Sinitsina & Zhiganshin skating, and they have also great speed.
    But components are also about choreography, interpretation (interpretation of music or story, not Lena presenting herself in front of judges), performance - in all these compenents I&K looses painfully to Pechalat, Bobrova, Weaver, even to Cappellini, Sinitsina. You don't need to love all these couples, but if they express the music or story, they should be appreciated giving them marks which they deserve.

    It was not just loose of level in two elements, they also lost any atmosphere they created in program to that moment, and you can obviously notice that since that time Nikita had to push Lena across the ice to finish skating, she was lost.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    While I&K have better skating skills than Weaver or Pechalat, Riazanova and Sinitsina also have better skating skills than Weaver and Pechalat. Especially it is very obvious in Sinitsina & Zhiganshin skating, and they have also great speed.
    But components are also about choreography, interpretation (interpretation of music or story, not Lena presenting herself in front of judges), performance - in all these compenents I&K looses painfully to Pechalat, Bobrova, Weaver, even to Cappellini, Sinitsina. You don't need to love all these couples, but if they express the music or story, they should be appreciated giving them marks which they deserve.
    Ilinykh/Katsalapov's program is better than Pechalat/Bourzat's copy of circus theme, Bobrova'Soloviev's 1980's free dance collection, Capellini/Lanotte's boring Igor choreography. And please Ilinykh/Katsalapov didn't lose any components to Capellini/Lanotte. They are very close to other teams too. We will see how judges going to score them at Olympics but standing ovation free dance of I/K is not going to far behind those teams, even with two falls.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Ilinykh/Katsalapov's program is better than Pechalat/Bourzat's copy of circus theme, Bobrova'Soloviev's 1980's free dance collection, Capellini/Lanotte's boring Igor choreography. And please Ilinykh/Katsalapov didn't lose any components to Capellini/Lanotte. They are very close to other teams too. We will see how judges going to score them at Olympics but standing ovation free dance of I/K is not going to far behind those teams, even with two falls.
    There are many questions for judges, as long as the couple will get such extremely high marks for skating with such mistakes and many other no dancing qualities – out of rhythm, open holds, two-footed skating….than Russian Federation and Morozov and couple themself has no push to try to change anything…why to train more if you get 100 points for fall, why to try to skate in rhythm when you get high marks enough for not keeping it, why to create a difficult choreography and take a risk of more falls when you get such extreme choreography mark for two-footed skating with almost no dancing holds?

    Choreography of I&K is simple with comparison with other teams. They are not keeping the rhythm, which is required and effects compenents as well. And interpretation of music/story…we already talked about it in European thread, there is no meaning and connection to music or story in I&K free dance. This is all what should be reflected in components mark.
    Pechalat, Bobrova, Cappellini are skating to the music and reflecting story the music / story perfectly, you don’t need to like watching the couples and their story doesn’t need to be close to your heart, but they express what they are skating to perfectly. I&K are not.

    The reaction of the audience is important and it means that those people love the couple…or their music…or simply figure skating. Talking about standing ovations in NHK – Japanese people love classical music, they are always so excited while hearing the music.
    And during this European Championships, I read one funny story…there were Russian fans cheering for I&K…and there were some other fans (probably Russian fans as well) sitting a few lines lower and screaming loudly for I&K also. During warm-up they screamed: “Come on, Lena and Ilia!!!!“ Fans sitting above them start started to laught and after a while they explained with patient that their favourite boy Ilia is called Nikita in real life. The audience is not always a measure of skating qualities. A popularity and skating quality are two diffirent things. Watching Lena who spends some much time posing for media and describes how she learns how to take care about her hair and face, how with make-up – I can understand that many people start to watch skating more and more but with no knowledge of it.

  13. #193
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    Only other team who has harder dance than Ilinykh/Katsalapov is Weaver/Poje. Other teams like Bobrova/Soloviev and Pechalat/Bourzat also doesn't use dance holds, mostly skate side by side. At least Ilinykh/Katsalapov usually skates face to face. If teams had to tell story as reading a book, than Pechalat/Bourzat should get the olympic gold medal. And Virtue/Moir shouldn't even be olympic gold medalist. I don't know which part of Iliykh/Katsalapov's dance you are talking about but I'm seeing all elements fitting the music and they are selling their program very well.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Only other team who has harder dance than Ilinykh/Katsalapov is Weaver/Poje. Other teams like Bobrova/Soloviev and Pechalat/Bourzat also doesn't use dance holds, mostly skate side by side. At least Ilinykh/Katsalapov usually skates face to face. If teams had to tell story as reading a book, than Pechalat/Bourzat should get the olympic gold medal. And Virtue/Moir shouldn't even be olympic gold medalist. I don't know which part of Iliykh/Katsalapov's dance you are talking about but I'm seeing all elements fitting the music and they are selling their program very well.
    To comparison with Bobrova & Soloviev...

    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    And now seriously: why are Lena and Nikita’s dances less difficult…you noticed free dance…OK

    - the speed of music – Vivaldi is two times faster than Swan Lake, which means that if you want to show the rhythm you have to be 2 times faster in movements than in Swan Lake…which explains more crossovers from Dima (you can hardly do crossovers over 5 strokes in music…Dima and Katya also have more mohawks, choctaws, three turns and turns…Lena and Nikita are more polite in moves…yes!!! they have time for it and their music is demanding it more than Vivaldi music which is crazy and frenetic.

    - skating like singles - Lena and Nikita are spending 57 seconds even not touching each other, it is a one quarter of the free dance, Bobrova and Soloviev are not touching each other 32 seconds.

    - difficult holds positions - skating in open position is more easy for gaining speed. Also English commentators are talking constantly that Lena and Nikita are very fast but they have open holdings and they are not touching each other… quotation: ,,Much more open in the skating…arm in arm allows the speed to be easily build than when you are in closed dance hold.“ Bobrova and Soloviev are more in closed positions, they also change hands posititons during dance which is more interesting (her hand around his waist/shoulder from front side, shoulder from back side/around neck), Lena and Nikita has less variety in holdings, less closed positions.

    By the way in short dance Lena and Nikita spend in closed position 48 second (Finnstep included) while Bobrova and Soloviev 91 seconds….
    (Trankov can be proud of himself…he is almost like dancer…with choreo made by Morozov who included some closed holds, Trankov spends almost as much time in dance position as Nikita does)

    - two footed skating – more in Lena and Nikita’s dance

    - resting in program – Bobrova and Soloviev are skating fast through whole program without stops. Lena and Nikita stops skating 3 times. Lena and Nikita‘s first resting part - after second lift - they both skate on two feet and than stands on one foot just looking at each other – this resting part takes 9 seconds. Lena and Nikita’s second resting part – after third lift – she stops and stands on two foot for 5 seconds, than Nikita two footed skating for 4 seconds, Lena does few running steps, one three turn and spiral position, then she lies down on Nikita’s leg (part demanding nothing from skating skills) – the second resting part takes 17 seconds.
    After spin they are skating slowly 8 second, than they start to prepare and gain the speed before twizzles.
    Lena and Nikita’s third resting – after twizzles – 8 seconds when they stop, than skate slowly and another 6 seconds gaining speed before steps sequence.

    - twizzles - in general what is discussed watching twizzles of all couples – it is more difficult to make twizzles without long preparation when judges and fans almost don’t expect than twizzles may come right now. In Lena and Nikita’s programs you always know, they prepare for it for 6 seconds in free dance and everybody knows it will come. Bobrova and Soloviev come with twizzles from steps and almost from nowhere…it suddenly happens…that is aprreciated more. Twizzles itself are better executed by Lena and Nikita.

    - 2 step sequences – again those open holds and long distance from Lena and Nikita, many ,,waiting for moments“ – Lena does turns, Nikita waiting, Nikita does turns and Lena is waiting, nothing like this in Bobrova & Soloviev dance.

    - complexity of movements – hands, legs, head…all together…more in Bobrova and Soloviev dance…

    What I take as difficulty of program is also what is it about…it is more difficult to express moves of bird’s wings to frenetic music than to skate a story of ,,two strong characters loving and feeling passionate to each other“. For Lena the same story line with the same expression like in past 3 years. For Bobrova something absolutely new demanding completly different arm/head movements, they never skated anything like that before.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    I don't know which part of Iliykh/Katsalapov's dance you are talking about but I'm seeing all elements fitting the music and they are selling their program very well.
    I wrote about it in Pre-Media Thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Great presentation means that you are able to express music or story you come with, to be able to go with music in rhythm also, to match changing of mood and dynamics in music.
    You say that Ilinykh improved in presentation (let’s completely forget about Nikita, watch Lena only)…

    Look at short dance…dancing is out of the rhythm in between elements parts – first problem, but if you think that dancing out of the rhythm can still match music perfectly, OK, let’s go on…music rhythm changes three times, Lena’s movements are still in the same kind of dynamics – more slower than fast, even in the last part where she uses her head only to express music…that’s another point, you think that great performer can express fast and dynamic music moving her head? (because all the main work and movements are done by Nikita, who we don’t look at right now)...another thing – Lena’s presentation is all the time about being sexy and hot like Hollywood queen…and she really looks sexy and hot…but the music is not sexy and hot only, the last part is wild and frenetic that you almost loose your breath… but Lena is still hot and sexy in quite restful and peacefull way…

    OK, let’s look at free dance…here it is more complicated about the story…looking at all Lena and Nikita and Morozov’s interviews it is hard to find what is music and story about…we have Swan Lake story with Odylie and Rothbart, but it is not ballet and Lena wants to be good Swan but tends to be Odylie more (looking at her December interview), but also it is a story of two strong characters who are loving and fighting with each other…but ballet dancers were working with couple (Diana Visnevski and some young ballet dancers) …

    Looking at choreo – Lena is doing swan moves four times (two times in straight places, once in final lift and first lift hand’s position can be also taken like swan movement)…what Lena does is not ballet move (she pointed learning ballet movements in front of the mirror and she had those ballet dancers to help her, but it doesn’t work) – her head’s position is not good – to much forward, her hands are not ballet – her fingers are flexed which you can’t find in ballet dancers…overall Lena‘s body posture has nothing to do with ballet…but she knew it…in 2011 using Don Quijote and working with great ballet ex-dancer and coach now Ludmila Vlasova she had more ballet preparation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8GRqMbLaPY – just compare….but yes, Lena pointed that their free dance is not a ballet (but then talks about ballet preparation and ballet dancers helping her) – very confusing indeed. But let’s believe that it really has nothing to do with ballet.

    Another thing – we have swan moves in it, but it is about woman…well we can try to come with some idea why mentally healthy woman moves with her hands like swan and how that moves shows a fight and love to her partner (and yes, swan costume..)...

    Another thing – expressing two strong characters (I don’t see in what moment she expresses strong character but I confess that this may be something what I simply couldn’t notice), expressing love and fight – I see that slow part expresses love, but where is fight, in what moment, where are her movements reminding a fight?

    Another thing – music is changing in character and speed and dynamics but Lena’s movements are still the same.

    Looking at music and Lena’s moves (totally forgetting Swan Lake story, just listening what music itself says) – it is dramatic at the beginning (Lena is not very dramatic in moves but very dramatic in facial expression, her movements taking first pose and taking pose in first lift is rather full of anger – so maybe there was planned a fight before starting program and during first lift). Than waltz part starts – music is full of joy and celebration and the imagine of a ball comes into my head (just listening the music), but Lena is out of the rhythm, no sparkles, no flawless of body posture, no ball at all. And what I terribly mind and what looks to be this season bad habbit – Lena forgets to extend her free leg absolutely and it doesn’t look well, it has nothing to do with dancing technique at all. Than slow part about love starts…Lena is slow indeed, she takes her hand from Nikita, then doing swan moves and lovely looking to judges, so she probably doesn’t want Nikita, but no, she extends her hands to him, so she wants him…spin…after it Nikita takes her hand and keeps her close to him, but Lena extend arms to judges (who does the girl want?). Final part with drama, the music is sharp, full of big emotions, full of energy and tension, yes, it is music suitable for fight, but during whole part Lena was doing moves slower and without any dynamics comparing to music (especially because of you I watched Russian Nationals, TEB and NHK – there was one dynamic movement from Lena in this part right after the twizzles bot in NHK and TEB, not in Nationals). Whole dynamic part took 1:11 and she did just one or none movement which would express the music. Looking all moves only without music in final part – I don’t understand it too much, there is a long preparation for twizzles, than Lena take his head into hands like “What I have done!“ (it should probably do Nikita, when he is struggling with twizzles so often), then Lena touches Nikita hand for a while, she makes turns and extend her arms maybe like bird?, then she hides behind Nikita like she would be afraid of judges, one quite dramatical move in Ina Bauer with extended arms in the middle of step sequence (during all step sequence she is looking at judges and looks angry, so maybe she fights with judges but with her facial expression only), then a lift which looks like from weightlifting and final ballet position (again, why ballet position when it is not about ballet).

    Overall from all parts only love part can be taken into account when you think about Lena and good presentation (but one is confused whether is it love to judges or to Nikita looking at choreo). Free dance takes 4:10 and love part takes 0:45, but there is a spin in it which takes 0:24, so the whole Lena’s “in story“ part takes 21 seconds only.

    I agree with you that Lena is lovely lady with good edges, she is elegant, with good costumes, sexy look, it is nice watching her gliding on the ice. But once we talk about presentation, she is not able to express different pieces. This season Morozov chose this pieces and Lena is not able to express music in short dance (expecially faster music) and she is not able to express music or story in free dance with exception of 21 seconds. But for me 21 seconds is too short time for accepting the girl like good dancer.

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