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Thread: Are I/K done after falling again?

  1. #46
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Everytime they interviewed Zhulin, he said I/K are lazy every single time.

    Good thing is Morozov only like them young, so their next coaching change is around the corner.
    It is to his extreme advantage to say they are lazy, he coaches their only real rivals in Russia right now- B/S. Srin Odessa's post gave a more detailed description about the truth as far as we all know it. One thing is clear- neither Zuhlin nor I/K were fully happy with the coaching relationship. That being the case, it is probably better that they did split. Now I/K have to figure out how to get the levels, and whether they can get them with Mozorov. However, even if they can't, the solution for them isn't to go back to Zuhlin (if he'd have them, which actually, for reasons to speculative to post here in good faith, I bet he would). The solution is to find someone who can help them get the levels and (IF necessary, which it may or may not be, because even if they were lazy with Zuhlin, there's no reason to assume they are now) put in more time on the ice.

  2. #47
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post

    Which begs the question, if they are so talented and as good as people say they are, why does the statistics show otherwise? The work ethic issue is one theory; however there could be other factors in play as well.
    I am not a fan of theirs, really, but even I am on the 'they have massive raw talent' boat. I think there are a few reasons why they may not have been able to capitalize on their talent yet and a few points to make.

    1. When people refer to their raw talent, they are not necessarily referring to their ability to hit levels, especially on step sequences. They are referring to their lines, speed, edges and ability to sell a program. They are referring to their basics, if you will, which I don't think anyone could in good faith argue aren't extremely strong. However, being able to hit deep edges isn't the same as being able to hit all the points in a step sequence. One problem might be, quite simply, that they need a new technical specialist who can work intensely with them for a few months on hitting the levels. They may also benefit from a new coach, but assuming they are happy with Mozorov, a new tech specialist is where to start.

    2. They may, whether they are lazy or not, just need more practice time, period. If so, the answer is simple- find some way to get it.

    3.They may get nervous when competing. I have sometimes thought this is at least part of the problem, such as their badly botched program at worlds last year. I just can't believe nerves weren't involved somewhat in that meltdown. Maybe the expectations (which have been on her in particular, from a VERY young age) are too much. If so, one or both of them may be benefited by a sports psychologist. They may also just be benefited from more competitive experiences, so if I were the Russian Fed I'd look into getting them to some senior B's to work out their nerves and get feedback on their programs places where 'it doesn't matter'.

    There are doubtless other possibilities. Either way I do wish them well. I do think they have a LOT of potential and that it will be a shame if it is not realized.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I am not a fan of theirs, really, but even I am on the 'they have massive raw talent' boat. I think there are a few reasons why they may not have been able to capitalize on their talent yet and a few points to make.

    1. When people refer to their raw talent, they are not necessarily referring to their ability to hit levels, especially on step sequences. They are referring to their lines, speed, edges and ability to sell a program. They are referring to their basics, if you will, which I don't think anyone could in good faith argue aren't extremely strong. However, being able to hit deep edges isn't the same as being able to hit all the points in a step sequence. One problem might be, quite simply, that they need a new technical specialist who can work intensely with them for a few months on hitting the levels. They may also benefit from a new coach, but assuming they are happy with Mozorov, a new tech specialist is where to start.

    2. They may, whether they are lazy or not, just need more practice time, period. If so, the answer is simple- find some way to get it.

    3.They may get nervous when competing. I have sometimes thought this is at least part of the problem, such as their badly botched program at worlds last year. I just can't believe nerves weren't involved somewhat in that meltdown. Maybe the expectations (which have been on her in particular, from a VERY young age) are too much. If so, one or both of them may be benefited by a sports psychologist. They may also just be benefited from more competitive experiences, so if I were the Russian Fed I'd look into getting them to some senior B's to work out their nerves and get feedback on their programs places where 'it doesn't matter'.

    There are doubtless other possibilities. Either way I do wish them well. I do think they have a LOT of potential and that it will be a shame if it is not realized.
    Good points. I should probably clarify that I don't dispute the raw talent at all, in fact I agree that they are a very charismatic team with a lot of wonderful qualities. However, they are a team that clearly have weaknesses in competition and it seems that their "raw talent" gives them a pass from a whole lot of valid criticism. I don't think they're lazy -- no elite dance team cannot be lazy, however, as you pointed out, whether they are smart with their training time is a valid question. Zhulin's accusation of being lazy is probably not as true as far as the extent, but there is probably some validity in questioning their training regimen.

    Bobrova and Soloviev have improved greatly under Zhulin's tutelage, so I don't think the man's opinions are completely useless.

    ETA: Also, I think there's a big difference in saying someone is "lazy" and that someone lacks "work ethic." I think what Zhulin and their critics are referring to is their work ethic, which is less about being lazy or not lazy, but rather how they practice, how conditioned they are when they practice etc and of course working smart.

  4. #49
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Good points. I should probably clarify that I don't dispute the raw talent at all, in fact I agree that they are a very charismatic team with a lot of wonderful qualities. However, they are a team that clearly have weaknesses in competition and it seems that their "raw talent" gives them a pass from a whole lot of valid criticism. I don't think they're lazy -- no elite dance team cannot be lazy, however, as you pointed out, whether they are smart with their training time is a valid question. Zhulin's accusation of being lazy is probably not as true as far as the extent, but there is probably some validity in questioning their training regimen.

    Bobrova and Soloviev have improved greatly under Zhulin's tutelage, so I don't think the man's opinions are completely useless.

    ETA: Also, I think there's a big difference in saying someone is "lazy" and that someone lacks "work ethic." I think what Zhulin and their critics are referring to is their work ethic, which is less about being lazy or not lazy, but rather how they practice, how conditioned they are when they practice etc and of course working smart.
    Basically in reality we agree on everything then- we are just saying it slightly differently

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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    Basically in reality we agree on everything then- we are just saying it slightly differently
    Haha, isn't that usually the case with us?

  6. #51
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    Are I/K done forever after falling behind the shibutanis again

    This is a funny thread title. Is everyone who places behind Maia and Alex at a grand prix event automatically done forever?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This is a funny thread title. Is everyone who places behind Maia and Alex at a grand prix event automatically done forever?


    Well it's because the Shibutanis are a boring team who has no business being among Ice Dance elite. So the fact that I/K were beat by those terrible Shibutanis-- oh the horror!! -- mean they are DOOOOOMMMEEEEDDD!

    On a more serious note. I/K is perceived to have a lot more natural talent than the Shibutanis and the Shibutanis' weaknesses are overemphasized (and strengths are de-emphasized) by some. Yeah, they need work on the second mark and get programs that make them stand out more, but I don't think that different from a single skater like Max Aaron or Gracie Gold who is known for jumps needing to work on components. Nobody is saying that Gracie or Max are doomed to fail because they have weaknesses. (Okay...maybe some are.)

  8. #53
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    For me I/K are better than Shib/Shib. Plus I don't like S/S's FD, because they don't dance to MJ's music! If you would replace their MJ music they easily can dance with that choreography to an another music. Nothing specific.

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    Custom Title chapis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This is a funny thread title. Is everyone who places behind Maia and Alex at a grand prix event automatically done forever?
    some people take seriously the expression "The important thing is not winning but "Shibutanis" lost!

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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    For me I/K are better than Shib/Shib. Plus I don't S/S's FD, because they don't dance to MJ's music! If you would replace their MJ music they easily can dance with that choreography to an another music. Nothing specific.
    I agree they're not there yet with the MJ choreography yet, but I don't expect them to be at this point. Michael Jackson dance choreography IS very challenging to begin with and it's even more challenging when you're trying to hit levels and do it on ice. As I said in other posts, they need to make sure they're hitting the levels first before they can really sell the choreography. The fact that the Shibutanis managed to beat I/K despite a deficit in PCS/GOE relative to I/K, is an indication that you're money ahead to get the levels then to get +GOE/PCS. You can disagree with that part of COP, but Maia and Alex are smart for going that method, especially as it was the source of their downfall the last two seasons.

    As the Eurosport folks point out, the music is very staccato but yet they have to do long-glides in step sequences to get the levels. So they're going to have to figure out how to dance to the staccato parts of the music, yet maintain the edges to get the key points. But again, I think that will come with due time. They don't need to peak at NHK. They need to peak at Nationals to get on the Olympic team and then if they make it to the Olympics peak again to do well. NHK is just one step toward that process.

    Again, I/K may have more raw talent than the Shibs, but that certainly hasn't been reflected in their face-to-face matchup record.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    It is to his extreme advantage to say they are lazy, he coaches their only real rivals in Russia right now- B/S. Srin Odessa's post gave a more detailed description about the truth as far as we all know it. One thing is clear- neither Zuhlin nor I/K were fully happy with the coaching relationship. That being the case, it is probably better that they did split. Now I/K have to figure out how to get the levels, and whether they can get them with Mozorov. However, even if they can't, the solution for them isn't to go back to Zuhlin (if he'd have them, which actually, for reasons to speculative to post here in good faith, I bet he would). The solution is to find someone who can help them get the levels and (IF necessary, which it may or may not be, because even if they were lazy with Zuhlin, there's no reason to assume they are now) put in more time on the ice.
    But I don't see what's the point of Zhulin lying about something like work ethic and laziness. Their own records corroborate what Zhulin has been saying, and always has something to say about I/K. 2 years after Zhulin and I/K parted way, I/K still couldn't hit levels. Clearly it's not a coaching problem.
    If you practice again and again and again, you'll hit the levels. Why can't they hit the levels? It's not like asking someone with a bad back to do level 4 layback. They have no physical limitation to hit levels. What could possibly cause it? The only possible explanation is work ethic.

  12. #57
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    I guess Gilles and Poirier should just shoot themselves. They lost to I&K and the Shibs.

  13. #58
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    But I don't see what's the point of Zhulin lying about something like work ethic and laziness. Their own records corroborate what Zhulin has been saying, and always has something to say about I/K. 2 years after Zhulin and I/K parted way, I/K still couldn't hit levels. Clearly it's not a coaching problem.
    If you practice again and again and again, you'll hit the levels. Why can't they hit the levels? It's not like asking someone with a bad back to do level 4 layback. They have no physical limitation to hit levels. What could possibly cause it? The only possible explanation is work ethic.
    You have to be taught how to do the dances correctly though. One strong possibility is that they either don't have a good technical coach or that the technical coach they have, while good is not good for them for whatever reason. It is not like you can magically hit levels through practice- you have to learn the dances correctly and you need to have someone with a sharp eye to point out your mistakes so you can fix them. Proof of the importance of a good technical specialist/coach is the Shibs/ D/W & V/M. Once Igor was out of the picture ALL of their levels suffered. While (ostensibly through feedback at competitions and a LOT of hard work watching themselves and help from the new tech coach they have) they managed to bring the levels up by end of season last year, they ALL took a hit in the fall last year. It's not like they were practicing less or less talented- they just no longer had a truly excellent tech coach.

    As to why Zuhlin would lie, a better questions is why he'd go out of his way to repeatedly bash them. Perhaps because he's a bit bitter? Perhaps because he wants B/S to be the definitive Russia number 1 and part of that is reverse politicking? I''m very reluctant to take his statements at face value.

  14. #59
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I guess Gilles and Poirier should just shoot themselves. They lost to I&K and the Shibs.

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    I&K just don't seem to be as well conditioned as, say, D&W. They don't hold their positions with ease and seem to struggle. No matter how great their basics are, they can't hide it.

    Zhulin was good to B&S *last* season. I could see the crazy starting with ruining Ennio Morricone's masterpiece Man with a Harmonica with some run-of-the-mill Tosca Fantasy rendition. The crazy is fully blown with another country bumpkin's version of Russian ice ballet with the incredibly cheesy Four Seasons. So really, Zhulin only came up with half of a good program. And I am a B&S fan.

    If I have to send my kids to an ice dancing coach, I would steer clear of Zhulin and Morozov and send them to Krylova.

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