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Thread: I've been thinking about the flutz

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    I've been thinking about the flutz

    I was thinking about the status of the flutz, especially in the context of rules regarding the # of triple jumps and ladies skating. Since you can only repeat 2 of the triple jumps, most women, with the exception of few, are limited to 7 triples in the free skate. While I have no issues with the occasional flutz and a lutz in progress, I think skating a flutz constantly, almost as if the skater has given up on proper edge technique, should be examined more carefully in terms of rules..

    I don't know how that would be determined exactly, whether one is actually trying or not... but I think it is very unfair to those skaters that can actually do all the most common 5 triple jumps properly. When skaters constantly flutz in competition, knowing that they are going to flutz (but just to get -GOE on lutz BV), they're basically going in planning to do 3 flips. On paper, of course it says the skater attempted 2 flips and a lutz. In the process they are getting a free triple into their program by the use of the 3rd flip, which seems a little unfair to me..

    I wanted to know what your opinions were on this...

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    Well, the incentive is there to do the jump properly because you aren't going to get +GOE with that "e". I think your suggestion makes sense although it is impractical to separate skaters who occasionally flutz from those who do so regularly, and tell the former group only they can try the lutz. You also would have to punish lips equally. It is also important to remember that although a flutz is not technically correct, it is still a very difficult jump so I don't know if I would give the jump no credit.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    You also would have to punish lips equally.
    Edge deductions could be solely up to the tech panel and decrease the base value of the jump, with a different degree of punishment depending on the severity and if it was a Flutz or a Lip.

    Flutzing a Lutz makes that jump easier than Lipping a Flip, IMO. My viewpoint is also supported by statistics in high level competition, where more people flutz than lip. You even see cases of people trying to fix their Lutz and starting to Lip, because the difficulty in trying to train a correct Lutz edge carries over into their Flip since the jumps are similar. I don't ever recall a Lipper suddenly Flutzing when trying to fix their Flip.

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    Custom Title Cherryy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Flutzing a Lutz makes that jump easier than Lipping a Flip, IMO. My viewpoint is also supported by statistics in high level competition, where more people flutz than lip.
    That's the case only with the ladies. Look at the men's FP from last worlds or 4cc. Lips outnumbered flutzs and the difference was huge. Does that mean lutz is easier than flip? Probably not.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    jkun, Welcome to Golden Skate!

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    Real problem is Some of Famous Flutzers don't get a edge call.

    For example, Takahashi, he has a perfect flutz, but no technical judges give a wrong edge call.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    I think that we already have a thread about "flutz that skaters treat as a third flip", it was specifically about Mao then it became a general discussion...

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    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I think that we already have a thread about "flutz that skaters treat as a third flip", it was specifically about Mao then it became a general discussion...
    It's a discussion that happens every season. The OP suggestion that it is okay to occasionally flutz because these skaters are still working on fixing their edge whereas those that do it chronically have given up is over-assuming some things. First, we don't know the intentions of a skater. For all we know, a skater could be working hard on fixing the edge but it has not yet materialized in competition due to nerves that leads to going back to old habits. Also, those that occasionally flutz have borderline edges, which can sometimes be given the doubt by judges because they aren't that severe. So I don't agree with giving these skaters an advantage over the others just because they have a less severe edge issue. As others have mentioned, fixing the flutz can sometimes mess with the flip as well. For these skaters who now have to deal with double edge issues, it's understandable that they might return to old habits to stabilize their other jumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkun View Post
    I was thinking about the status of the flutz, especially in the context of rules regarding the # of triple jumps and ladies skating. Since you can only repeat 2 of the triple jumps, most women, with the exception of few, are limited to 7 triples in the free skate. While I have no issues with the occasional flutz and a lutz in progress, I think skating a flutz constantly, almost as if the skater has given up on proper edge technique, should be examined more carefully in terms of rules..

    I don't know how that would be determined exactly, whether one is actually trying or not... but I think it is very unfair to those skaters that can actually do all the most common 5 triple jumps properly. When skaters constantly flutz in competition, knowing that they are going to flutz (but just to get -GOE on lutz BV), they're basically going in planning to do 3 flips. On paper, of course it says the skater attempted 2 flips and a lutz. In the process they are getting a free triple into their program by the use of the 3rd flip, which seems a little unfair to me..

    I wanted to know what your opinions were on this...
    Yep. I said that in the past on another thread. That's what I thought to - though so few can do all "basic" five triples it seems (well I mean consistently). think in the last quad Rochette was really the only one of the medallists who could do the 5 basic jumps though she couldn't do a triple triple.

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    As was discussed in an earlier thread on this topic, there really isn't much that can be changed re: penalty for wrong edge unless you bring down the base value of the double-axel. Otherwise, if you start penalizing wrong edge to the point where a skater could get more points by replacing the wrong edge jump with a double-axel, that's what skaters would do. They would take out their flutz or lip and replace it with a double-axel.

    In order to encourage skaters to not abandon their flutz/lip without bringing down the base value of the double-axel, you could limit the no. of double-axels that a skater can put in a program down to one rather than the two that is allowed now. This rule would be very damaging for a skater who can't do a triple loop, toe loop or salchow. Yuna, for example, uses one of her double-axels to replace it with a triple loop, so if she couldn't do the second double-axel, she would, I suppose, have to resort to filling one of her jump passes with a double-lutz, which really is not ideal. I think it is reasonable for a skater to be allowed to replace one of their triples with a double-axel.

    So as it stands now, there's not much else to be done to penalize wrong-edge without either lowering the base value of the double axel or limiting the number of double axels that can be included in a program down to one.

    Of course, if a bonus were offered for skaters who can do the full set of triples, this would certainly be an incentive, but I think there was a reason---I cannot remember what it was---why this was not a good idea when you examine the scoring system as a whole.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    As was discussed in an earlier thread on this topic, there really isn't much that can be changed re: penalty for wrong edge unless you bring down the base value of the double-axel. Otherwise, if you start penalizing wrong edge to the point where a skater could get more points by replacing the wrong edge jump with a double-axel, that's what skaters would do. They would take out their flutz or lip and replace it with a double-axel.
    I don't see anything wrong with that. Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."

    Skaters have the same option if they can't do a loop or a Salchow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."
    That's awfully harsh when the COP aspires to reward difficulty. Yes, a flutz is bad but a fall on a quad is also bad, but a fall on a quad still earns a lot of points due to the difficulty of rotating four times in the air. A flutz is much harder than a double axel.

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    Honestly I think people go way too crazy over flutzes/lips. It's poor technique, although the intended jump is usually obvious. The skater gets a hit in GoE for the error which usually costs about 2 points on the jump (considering a properly edged jump would get +1 or +2 and a flutz or lip usually gets -2 to 0). I think a bigger issue as mentioned is consistency in deducting for a flutz/lip, when it comes to favourable skaters who sometimes get +1/+2 on their flutzes versus the rest getting hammered for it (even if their flutz is less apparent than a top skater's).

    But yeah, everyone poking fun at skaters being like "she flutzes, how terrible" is really just complaining about a minor error, and one that the system does take into account. A program isn't exactly marred by a flutz/lip.

    I commend skaters like Mao for trying to change their technique, but really it only amounts to like 2-3 points difference in the long run, which can easily be made up for in other areas that don't involve overhauling your jumping.

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    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."

    Skaters have the same option if they can't do a loop or a Salchow.
    Right now, a double-axel with a +2 GOE done in the second half of the program is worth 4.73. If a mild flutz is to be 4.5, then most skaters will simply abandon trying to put in a lutz, i.e., they will stop trying to master the lutz, altogether.

    Since most skaters flutz or lip anyway, under such a rule change, most skaters will abandon either their lutz or flip altogether, thus discouraging skaters from trying to master both the lutz and flip.

    I personally don't have a very strong opinion one way or another, but I am inclined to think that a scoring system where skaters are encouraged to master both the lutz and flip rather than abandon one is better.

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    LEAVE EDMUNDS ALONE!!1!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkun View Post
    I don't know how that would be determined exactly, whether one is actually trying or not... but I think it is very unfair to those skaters that can actually do all the most common 5 triple jumps properly. When skaters constantly flutz in competition, knowing that they are going to flutz (but just to get -GOE on lutz BV), they're basically going in planning to do 3 flips. On paper, of course it says the skater attempted 2 flips and a lutz. In the process they are getting a free triple into their program by the use of the 3rd flip, which seems a little unfair to me..
    A flutz is not the same jump as a flip.

    On the flip, you are skating in the same direction as the jump rotation (left backward inside edge for counter-clockwise rotators).

    On the lutz, you are skating in the opposite direction to the jump rotation (left backward outside edge for counter-clockwise rotators).

    On a flutz, a skater will roll-over from LBO to LBI. On a flip, there won't be an LBO to begin with (flip entry is usually a LFO-LBI three-turn).

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Flutzing a Lutz makes that jump easier than Lipping a Flip, IMO. My viewpoint is also supported by statistics in high level competition, where more people flutz than lip. You even see cases of people trying to fix their Lutz and starting to Lip, because the difficulty in trying to train a correct Lutz edge carries over into their Flip since the jumps are similar. I don't ever recall a Lipper suddenly Flutzing when trying to fix their Flip.
    Flutzing and lipping serve the same purpose. Because the entry to the jump is done on a curve, you roll onto the opposite edge in order to stabilise yourself and maintain balance on take-off. The mechanism is the same for both flutz and lip.

    I guess the fact that you start skating in the same direction to the jump rotation if you flutz, negate the harder aspect of this jump, more so than in the case of lipping so you could argue that the flutz penalty should be a little bit higher than the lip one.

    As for the statistics of flutzing vs. lipping, as Cherryy pointed out, if you look at men's protocols there usually are more lips than flutzes.

    As for your final point, I fail to see how trying to fix one jump could affect the other, given those two jumps aren't really similar. There is different edge on the entry, so on one jump you skate in the opposite direction to the other, different step in and timing on take-off. I can't think of any skaters who started to lip when they were fixing their flutz but even if that was the case, correlation does not equal causation. Those skaters could have had an unclear or insecure flip entry in the first place.

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