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Thread: I've been thinking about the flutz

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    I've been thinking about the flutz

    I was thinking about the status of the flutz, especially in the context of rules regarding the # of triple jumps and ladies skating. Since you can only repeat 2 of the triple jumps, most women, with the exception of few, are limited to 7 triples in the free skate. While I have no issues with the occasional flutz and a lutz in progress, I think skating a flutz constantly, almost as if the skater has given up on proper edge technique, should be examined more carefully in terms of rules..

    I don't know how that would be determined exactly, whether one is actually trying or not... but I think it is very unfair to those skaters that can actually do all the most common 5 triple jumps properly. When skaters constantly flutz in competition, knowing that they are going to flutz (but just to get -GOE on lutz BV), they're basically going in planning to do 3 flips. On paper, of course it says the skater attempted 2 flips and a lutz. In the process they are getting a free triple into their program by the use of the 3rd flip, which seems a little unfair to me..

    I wanted to know what your opinions were on this...

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    Well, the incentive is there to do the jump properly because you aren't going to get +GOE with that "e". I think your suggestion makes sense although it is impractical to separate skaters who occasionally flutz from those who do so regularly, and tell the former group only they can try the lutz. You also would have to punish lips equally. It is also important to remember that although a flutz is not technically correct, it is still a very difficult jump so I don't know if I would give the jump no credit.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    You also would have to punish lips equally.
    Edge deductions could be solely up to the tech panel and decrease the base value of the jump, with a different degree of punishment depending on the severity and if it was a Flutz or a Lip.

    Flutzing a Lutz makes that jump easier than Lipping a Flip, IMO. My viewpoint is also supported by statistics in high level competition, where more people flutz than lip. You even see cases of people trying to fix their Lutz and starting to Lip, because the difficulty in trying to train a correct Lutz edge carries over into their Flip since the jumps are similar. I don't ever recall a Lipper suddenly Flutzing when trying to fix their Flip.

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    Custom Title Cherryy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Flutzing a Lutz makes that jump easier than Lipping a Flip, IMO. My viewpoint is also supported by statistics in high level competition, where more people flutz than lip.
    That's the case only with the ladies. Look at the men's FP from last worlds or 4cc. Lips outnumbered flutzs and the difference was huge. Does that mean lutz is easier than flip? Probably not.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    jkun, Welcome to Golden Skate!

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    Real problem is Some of Famous Flutzers don't get a edge call.

    For example, Takahashi, he has a perfect flutz, but no technical judges give a wrong edge call.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    I think that we already have a thread about "flutz that skaters treat as a third flip", it was specifically about Mao then it became a general discussion...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkun View Post
    I was thinking about the status of the flutz, especially in the context of rules regarding the # of triple jumps and ladies skating. Since you can only repeat 2 of the triple jumps, most women, with the exception of few, are limited to 7 triples in the free skate. While I have no issues with the occasional flutz and a lutz in progress, I think skating a flutz constantly, almost as if the skater has given up on proper edge technique, should be examined more carefully in terms of rules..

    I don't know how that would be determined exactly, whether one is actually trying or not... but I think it is very unfair to those skaters that can actually do all the most common 5 triple jumps properly. When skaters constantly flutz in competition, knowing that they are going to flutz (but just to get -GOE on lutz BV), they're basically going in planning to do 3 flips. On paper, of course it says the skater attempted 2 flips and a lutz. In the process they are getting a free triple into their program by the use of the 3rd flip, which seems a little unfair to me..

    I wanted to know what your opinions were on this...
    Yep. I said that in the past on another thread. That's what I thought to - though so few can do all "basic" five triples it seems (well I mean consistently). think in the last quad Rochette was really the only one of the medallists who could do the 5 basic jumps though she couldn't do a triple triple.

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    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    As was discussed in an earlier thread on this topic, there really isn't much that can be changed re: penalty for wrong edge unless you bring down the base value of the double-axel. Otherwise, if you start penalizing wrong edge to the point where a skater could get more points by replacing the wrong edge jump with a double-axel, that's what skaters would do. They would take out their flutz or lip and replace it with a double-axel.

    In order to encourage skaters to not abandon their flutz/lip without bringing down the base value of the double-axel, you could limit the no. of double-axels that a skater can put in a program down to one rather than the two that is allowed now. This rule would be very damaging for a skater who can't do a triple loop, toe loop or salchow. Yuna, for example, uses one of her double-axels to replace it with a triple loop, so if she couldn't do the second double-axel, she would, I suppose, have to resort to filling one of her jump passes with a double-lutz, which really is not ideal. I think it is reasonable for a skater to be allowed to replace one of their triples with a double-axel.

    So as it stands now, there's not much else to be done to penalize wrong-edge without either lowering the base value of the double axel or limiting the number of double axels that can be included in a program down to one.

    Of course, if a bonus were offered for skaters who can do the full set of triples, this would certainly be an incentive, but I think there was a reason---I cannot remember what it was---why this was not a good idea when you examine the scoring system as a whole.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    As was discussed in an earlier thread on this topic, there really isn't much that can be changed re: penalty for wrong edge unless you bring down the base value of the double-axel. Otherwise, if you start penalizing wrong edge to the point where a skater could get more points by replacing the wrong edge jump with a double-axel, that's what skaters would do. They would take out their flutz or lip and replace it with a double-axel.
    I don't see anything wrong with that. Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."

    Skaters have the same option if they can't do a loop or a Salchow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."
    That's awfully harsh when the COP aspires to reward difficulty. Yes, a flutz is bad but a fall on a quad is also bad, but a fall on a quad still earns a lot of points due to the difficulty of rotating four times in the air. A flutz is much harder than a double axel.

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    ISU, stop promoting 2-foot skating!
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    That's awfully harsh when the COP aspires to reward difficulty. Yes, a flutz is bad but a fall on a quad is also bad, but a fall on a quad still earns a lot of points due to the difficulty of rotating four times in the air. A flutz is much harder than a double axel.
    The over-arching question is what should be rewarded. Should we reward difficulty even if it often results in mistakes or should we put more effort on quality?

    I would personally much rather see easier program performed to a higher standard than people flutzing, lipping, underrotating or double-footing their jumps. But I also understand the opposite point of view. That it is a sport, that skaters should be aiming high and pushing their boundaries.

    I guess striking the right balance between the two is necessary so that people are still trying to do the hard stuff but at the same time making effort to perform their elements correctly.

    I think that at the moment that balance is completely out-of-whack. A double-footed triple twist lift with a crash is going to earn you more points than a clean double twist lift performed to a good standard. A double-footed quad with a hand down is going to still net you a huge amount of points because of how high the base values have been raised. A slow, strained Lv4 spin is going to give you much more points than a decently performed easier spin.

    The issue here isn't just how low or high the base values are set. Even more important is the fact that the judges seem to be unable to do simple addition (deductions are supposed to be cumulative) and to use the whole range of GOE to reward quality. If you look at GOE for elements, it usually follows the pattern of '0 for everything, add +1-2 if it's a famous skater or an impressive looking/difficult element, subtract for the most obvious mistake.'

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    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."

    Skaters have the same option if they can't do a loop or a Salchow.
    Right now, a double-axel with a +2 GOE done in the second half of the program is worth 4.73. If a mild flutz is to be 4.5, then most skaters will simply abandon trying to put in a lutz, i.e., they will stop trying to master the lutz, altogether.

    Since most skaters flutz or lip anyway, under such a rule change, most skaters will abandon either their lutz or flip altogether, thus discouraging skaters from trying to master both the lutz and flip.

    I personally don't have a very strong opinion one way or another, but I am inclined to think that a scoring system where skaters are encouraged to master both the lutz and flip rather than abandon one is better.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."
    Well I definitely wouldn't want that big of penalty.

    Also, Double Axels are still worth a little too much. It's too easy for skaters to leave an entire Triple out of their jump arsenal. The past 5 female World Champions in a row have only attempted 4 different Triples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well I definitely wouldn't want that big of penalty.

    Also, Double Axels are still worth a little too much. It's too easy for skaters to leave an entire Triple out of their jump arsenal. The past 5 female World Champions in a row have only attempted 4 different Triples.
    I'm okay with a skater leaving a triple out of their arsenal, if it's difficult for them to execute or if they're uncomfortable attempting it. I don't think female skaters should be forced to attempt all 5 jumps. It would be like forcing the men to try both 4T and 4S.

    Funny enough, a lot of skaters who land triples in their sleep have issues with their double axel.

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