I've been thinking about the flutz | Page 2 | Golden Skate

I've been thinking about the flutz

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I tend to think given the fact that edge issues are such a widespread concern, if skaters aren't allowed to perform certain jumps with incorrect edges, there might be a push for a change in the zayak rule. Thereby, allowing skaters to repeat triple jumps that they can do correctly. Otherwise, we will see a great decline in difficulty at the elite level.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I wouldn't want a change in the Zayak rule. Skaters should be challenged to diversify their difficulty not be resigned to being able to only perform two or three triples correctly.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Another way to go is to require skaters to include at least one attempt of all five triples. In this way, you wouldn't have to change the base values and could punish wrong edges more.

TBH, though, I don't see why anyone would want to change anything. Wrong edges aren't that bothersome for the casual viewer, and since the punishment would apply equally to all skaters, it wouldn't really change the final outcome anyway.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I thought the flutz (e) deduction was an automatic -3 in GOE? I could have swiorn that I remember Mao getting -3's across the board on her flutz which was landed perfectly, and that's when she took the jump out of her programs for years. Did they change that rule or just forgotten/laxened up on it?
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Following Blade of Passion's idea, a mild flutz could have a base value of, say, 4.5 and a serious wrong edge could have a base value of 3. A skater might decide, "well, that's just not a jump that I can do -- I'll replace it with a double Axel for now while I work on it for next year."

Well I definitely wouldn't want that big of penalty.

Also, Double Axels are still worth a little too much. It's too easy for skaters to leave an entire Triple out of their jump arsenal. The past 5 female World Champions in a row have only attempted 4 different Triples. :mad:
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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As for your final point, I fail to see how trying to fix one jump could affect the other, given those two jumps aren't really similar. There is different edge on the entry, so on one jump you skate in the opposite direction to the other, different step in and timing on take-off. I can't think of any skaters who started to lip when they were fixing their flutz but even if that was the case, correlation does not equal causation. Those skaters could have had an unclear or insecure flip entry in the first place.

Of course they are similar. The skater is trying to takeoff by generating pressure on back edges of the same skating foot, and using a toepick for both. The real difference is that the glide into a lutz goes the opposite direction of the rotation and the glide into a flip goes with the rotation. Which is why a Flutz is not a Flip and a Lip is not a Lutz.

Julia Lipnitskaya had a clear, unwavering inside edge on her Flip jump in the past, but has gotten a couple 'e' calls on it recently, since trying to fix her lutz (which usually doesn't get an 'e' call anymore). It's definitely hard for many people to get the correct lutz takeoff edge; they have to focus very hard and it can start becoming muscle memory whenever they get into that position. Not hard to see why it might start messing with the Flip edge.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Well I definitely wouldn't want that big of penalty.

Also, Double Axels are still worth a little too much. It's too easy for skaters to leave an entire Triple out of their jump arsenal. The past 5 female World Champions in a row have only attempted 4 different Triples. :mad:

I'm okay with a skater leaving a triple out of their arsenal, if it's difficult for them to execute or if they're uncomfortable attempting it. I don't think female skaters should be forced to attempt all 5 jumps. It would be like forcing the men to try both 4T and 4S.

Funny enough, a lot of skaters who land triples in their sleep have issues with their double axel.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If flutzing/lipping is penalized more than it is now, what would happen probably is that skaters (who have half a chance) would start attempting triple-axels more, which I think might not be such a bad idea.

There just aren't very many women who have half a chance (=50% success in practice?) of rotating a triple axel, let alone landing it in the heat of competition. I don't think we would see many more attempts.

Underrotated (as opposed to downgraded) 3A is worth 6.0 base points, same as the base value for a rotated triple lutz. So if you have a skater who is more likely to rotate at least a little over 3 full revolutions from an axel takeoff and land on one foot than to do the same from a correct lutz takeoff, then it would be to her benefit to try the 3A. If she's more likely to fall, step out, and/or rotate less than 3 full revolutions, she's better off doing a flutz.

And of course, if she has a chance of standing up on both, even with flaws, she might as well try both.

If we want to see more failed attempts at triple axels, I think there would need to be higher base marks even with underrotations or downgrades, or a bonus of some sort from the attempt as long as the code is called as 3A plus < or << -- i.e., downgraded triple axel would need to be worth more enough more than double axel to counteract the negative GOE.

If we only want to see successful or close-to-successful 3A attempts by women, I think we'll need to wait for a significant advances in skate and rink technology or training methods, and/or changes in gravity.

Another way to go is to require skaters to include at least one attempt of all five triples.

You can't require all triples in the senior freeskate rules, because there are many lower-ranked senior-level skaters who have a much more limited repertoire of triples than what you see at the elite levels. (And in the lowest senior ranks, even the triples they do attempt aren't rotated, or they don't even bother trying and only attempt doubles, taking the automatic -3s in the short program.)

What you could do is require all six different basic takeoffs in the freeskate, regardless of rotation. So skaters who absolutely can't rotate three times from a given takeoff could plan the respective double, and aim for positive GOE if possible.

Assuming this requirement would carry a penalty for each takeoff not attempted, requiring only the takeoff and not the number of rotations would also mean that making the attempt and popping would be penalized only in the base mark, and the lower GOE if applicable, without an additional penalty for trying to meet the requirement and failing that day.

I.e., you cannot force skaters to do jumps they are not physically capable of doing.
The short program requires only double axel and two different triples -- and if you look at senior B results, Four Continents, etc., you'll see that there are plenty of senior ladies -- many over 19 so they're not allowed to compete junior -- who cannot even meet those requirements.

I thought the flutz (e) deduction was an automatic -3 in GOE? I could have swiorn that I remember Mao getting -3's across the board on her flutz which was landed perfectly, and that's when she took the jump out of her programs for years. Did they change that rule or just forgotten/laxened up on it?

No, there was never a required -3 for wrong edge takeoff.

In the years when there was a separate ! code for unclear takeoff edge, if the tech panel called "e" for a blatant wrong edge, the GOE was required to be negative and -2 to -3 off what the jump would otherwise deserve. So if the edge change was really severe and obvious, and there was nothing else good about the jump (or other subtle errors), it might have gotten final GOE of -3 from all judges. But for a rotated, nontelegraphed jump with good flow but a blatant edge change, the -3 wasn't automatic: -2 would still have been a legal final GOE.
 

Moment

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2013
BV deductions are very appropriate because they're neither really Lutzes nor flips.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
At the end of the day, a triple flutz/lip is still a triple jump that is harder to execute than a triple loop.

A triple flutz or triple lip should not be considered essentially the same base value as a 2A, just because of an edge change.

Lipping and flutzing is poor technique, but it shouldn't be nearly as detrimental to a skater's BV as some have suggested. Skaters will be avoiding flips and lutzes altogether, if a slight edge change rendered it to the value of a 2A at the discretion of a tech specialist. And you KNOW that the tech specialist in those cases will give favouritism/leniency to top skaters.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I'm okay with a skater leaving a triple out of their arsenal, if it's difficult for them to execute or if they're uncomfortable attempting it. I don't think female skaters should be forced to attempt all 5 jumps. It would be like forcing the men to try both 4T and 4S.

Difficult to execute? Uncomfortable attempting? IT'S A COMPETITION.

While I agree too much difficulty just for the sake of difficulty is bad for the sport (REALLY bad in the case of ugly and/or time-consuming CoP spins/footwork), a complete set of Triple jumps should be more valued than it currently is. I don't find your comparison about Quads to be accurate at all. Asking Ladies to have all of their Triples up through Lutz is like asking Men to have all of their Triples up through Axel...which they ALL do, if they ever want to compete at a high level.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
The isu won't change because flutzing can start out really being a lutz! Intent can be really there for lutz. Sotnikova for one always and never ever does not Flutz but she would like to do a lutz and her flip is so horrendous and awful and she can not do a flip properly but Flutz is no problem so she is not doing a flip her lutz is a Flutz because she can't hold that edge but she is not doing a flip! So they need flutzing and it's not a flip it's a lutz with a mistake.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Asking Ladies to have all of their Triples up through Lutz is like asking Men to have all of their Triples up through Axel...which they ALL do, if they ever want to compete at a high level.

But the rules for senior competition apply to all entrants in all senior competitions -- those who are already competing "at a high level," those who aspire to get there but haven't achieved that level yet, and those who will never get to elite level but who can qualify as senior level and -- because of age limits -- may not qualify as junior.

If you want to REQUIRE (not just reward, but penalize and shame anyone who can't achieve) all different triple jumps at the elite level, then you need different rules for elite competition than for other "senior" competitions.

Already in the last couple years there are minimum technical scores for ISU championships, but not for other senior internationals, so there is precedent of different rules for different senior events.

So, for those who are in favor of such a requirement --

How would you word the rule? What exactly would be the requirement, how would it be determined whether the skater complied, and what would be the penalty for failing to do so?

Which competitions would it apply to and which would be exempt?

What happens if an excellent skater is having trouble with one or two jump takeoffs, perhaps because of temporary injury, intentionally omits those takeoffs from her program or ends up popping or doubling those jumps in competition, and takes the penalty, but everything else is so good that she earns the highest total score anyway?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is what is cool about a Lutz jump. Thanks to that outside edge, you are curving THIS way on the ice, then suddenly you pop into the air and you are spinning THAT way. :rock: If you "release the counter-rotation prematurely" by rocking over to the wrong edge (thank you gkelly), then … meh. There's no Lutz in your Lutz.

True, it is easy to tell from the set-up and entrance what jump was intended. But in sports you do not score points for intentions, only for execution. As for the argument that we want skaters to keep on working on their Lutz to develop good technique (rather than to bail with a double Axel), you do not teach good technique by rewarding bad technique.

I don't see why a 1.5 reduction in base value for a wrong edge take-off would be excessive. That still gives you more points than a triple Salchow or toe loop. And double that penalty for a flutz that doesn't even try.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
"I don't see why a 1.5 reduction in base value for a wrong edge take-off would be excessive."

A triple flutz is way harder to execute than a triple loop. Essentially that's the equivalent of leaving out a double toe in a combo (not to mention, the different between having level 3's on all your spins instead of level 4's). And I don't think an omitted 2T should be worth the same as an edge change. If it was worth only 4.5 points, A fall on a fully rotated triple flutz with a wrong edge take off would get -3's and then a -1 deduction. So essentially about 1.3 points. A fall on a fully rotated triple loop would garner 2.0 points after GOE/deduction. To mean, that doesn't make sense.

To put it a different way, it's essentially saying an underrotated triple lutz with a clean edge is worth 4.2, but a fully rotated triple flutz is worth 4.5? The GOE deduction in itself accounts for the wrong edge. I don't think a skater with a clean triple flutz, with everything else okay, should score any less than 5.0 points. A skater with a clean triple lutz edge would score about 7 points, so the 2-point differential to me is enough.

Mathman, how would you feel about a skater getting a 1.5 reduction in base value, but then the judges must ignore the edge call when coming up with their GOE? i.e. they give GOE as if the jump had a clean edge, but it's up to the tech specialist to apply the 1.5 deduction.

And it's absolutely not true that you don't score points for intentions in sports. That's why in gymnastics, a high difficulty score can still place a gymnast ahead even with errors. It's the age-old dilemma of going clean with easy difficulty and having errors with harder difficulty.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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But the rules for senior competition apply to all entrants in all senior competitions -- those who are already competing "at a high level," those who aspire to get there but haven't achieved that level yet, and those who will never get to elite level but who can qualify as senior level and -- because of age limits -- may not qualify as junior.

If you want to REQUIRE (not just reward, but penalize and shame anyone who can't achieve) all different triple jumps at the elite level, then you need different rules for elite competition than for other "senior" competitions.

Nobody is saying it should be required. I'm not sure why you're going on and on about this.

I don't see why a 1.5 reduction in base value for a wrong edge take-off would be excessive. That still gives you more points than a triple Salchow or toe loop. And double that penalty for a flutz that doesn't even try.

Well, a flutz still needs to be worth more than a double axel. It's harder, so it needs to be scored as such. The same goes for a Lutz with just a minor edge violation...it's a lot harder than toeloop or salchow.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Mathman, how would you feel about a skater getting a reduction in base value, but then the judges must ignore the edge call when coming up with their GOE?

This is absolutely what should be happening. The same goes for underrotation calls.

Also, the penalty for underrotations should be on a sliding scale. The more difficult a jump is, the less severe the penalty should be. If you miss 1/4 of a rotation on a Double jump, for example, you've left out a far higher percentage of the rotation for that jump than if you missed a 1/4 rotation on a Quad. The penalty should be start at 60% for easier double jumps and then gradually get more lenient as the jumps become more difficult, with Quads getting 80% base value. An underrotated Quad Toe currently loses 3.1 points. That's pretty ridiculous, especially since the calls between jumps can be so close. It's like losing the points for an entire spin in your program just because your Quad was a couple degrees short. That's not right.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Nobody is saying it should be required. I'm not sure why you're going on and on about this.

Another way to go is to require skaters to include at least one attempt of all five triples.

That's what my first post on the subject responded to.

Your statement "Asking Ladies to have all of their Triples up through Lutz is like asking Men to have all of their Triples up through Axel...which they ALL do, if they ever want to compete at a high level." did not specify a requirement, I grant you. My mind was already heading in that direction because hurrah had introduced the concept.

But my question still holds. How do you want to "ask" the ladies to have all the triples, and how do you want to handle skaters who don't but are superior in most other ways?
 

PftJump

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Flutz is not a matter of Difficulty but Conscience.

Because They ALL know that they will do a Flutz but Lutz.

Trying? No. It's "Pretending".

Just pretending Lutz for a some more scores.

more difficult? worth? such a cheating?

Flutz and Lip is matter of habit, not execution.

They even don't try to correct a wrong habits.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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But my question still holds. How do you want to "ask" the ladies to have all the triples?

By making 2Axel worth less points and giving a bonus point to competitors that land the full array of jumps in a satisfactory manner.
 
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