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Thread: I've been thinking about the flutz

  1. #46
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    Does it matter if a flutz is more difficult to do than a loop? I don't really think so, a correctly done listed jump and incorrect jump cannot be held in the same regard. Flutzing hinders the quality of the element and the overall performance due to its ugliness.

  2. #47
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say flutzing is inherently ugly? The ugliness comes from people awkwardly lurching their bodies/legs, which is commonly associated with a flutz. I think Tara Lipinski's flutz was actually pretty cool looking...she quickly went from a DEEP outside edge to a DEEP inside edge, exploding off the ice. A very energetic display.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moment View Post
    It was a flutz, not even a slight one at that. The tech panel always makes so many errors it's embarrassing.
    Well you should be out there then since you are so much more knowledgable than the tech panel.

  4. #49
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    Your stupid try at sarcasm doesn't change that girl still is a flutzer and that jump was a flutz.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Difficult to execute? Uncomfortable attempting? IT'S A COMPETITION.

    While I agree too much difficulty just for the sake of difficulty is bad for the sport (REALLY bad in the case of ugly and/or time-consuming CoP spins/footwork), a complete set of Triple jumps should be more valued than it currently is. I don't find your comparison about Quads to be accurate at all. Asking Ladies to have all of their Triples up through Lutz is like asking Men to have all of their Triples up through Axel...which they ALL do, if they ever want to compete at a high level.
    There is a reason why skaters do the spins and jumps they do, because they are performing what is best suited to them. There are plenty of men who don't execute certain triples, e.g. Plushenko and his 3F. Some men don't perform 2 quads, some men don't perform 2 axels in their FS. Everyone plays to their strengths.

    What's the point of asking ladies to attempt jumps they can't execute? And then when they actually attempt to do all triples, people will then breath down their necks for flutzing/lipping? Gosh, there's no pleasing people...

  6. #51
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Still, it is not too much to expect our world and Olympic champions to display (in the words of the IJS ) "mastery of the complete skating vocabulary."

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Still, it is not too much to expect our world and Olympic champions to display (in the words of the IJS ) "mastery of the complete skating vocabulary."
    I think it is, actually. It's like asking every female skater to be able to do a Biellmann spin.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think it is, actually.
    Funny how every Ladies Champion from 1991 to 2008 attempted 5 different Triples. But apparently that's suddenly too much to ask for these days. Maybe global warming has made it too difficult?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    There are plenty of men who don't execute certain triples, e.g. Plushenko and his 3F.
    He just did 3F at his most recent competition and he did it in the 2010 season at Cup of Russia as well. He has never had any particular difficulty in landing the jump, he simply stopped doing it in 2010 because it wasn't worth more points than a 2Axel because of edge violation rules.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Funny how every Ladies Champion from 1991 to 2008 attempted 5 different Triples. But apparently that's suddenly too much to ask for these days. Maybe global warming has made it too difficult?
    With edge violations, women have been less inclined to do it. Also higher difficulty and PCS handouts has made the top skaters feeling like they don't need to show mastery of all 5 triples. If in the 90s, skaters were legitimately deducted for edge/UR calls, there would be a lot of skaters who wouldn't be attempting lutzes or flips. I do love the good ole days where 7 triples and two lutzes were par for the course, and skaters were actually criticized if they were missing a particular triple.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If in the 90s, skaters were legitimately deducted for edge/UR calls, there would be a lot of skaters who wouldn't be attempting lutzes or flips.
    Only if the judges gave them nearly equal credit for a Double Axel, which is NOT how it went. That IS how it goes these days, though...

  11. #56
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    The rules could build in rewards for executing five different triples, e.g., a moderate bonus for doing so. [My suggestion would be something like 4 point bonus for 6 different triples (men) or 5 different triples plus double axel (women) with no underrotation, downgrade, or edge calls and no GOEs less than -1.]

    But you can't make skaters execute jumps they can't actually do.

    Nor can you write rules that guarantee that the champion must always have at least as many different triples as the other challengers. Unless you make apply a bonus (or penalty) so huge that variety of successful triples becomes the determining factor and weak skaters who do nothing except one of each triple will have an advantage over skaters who do everything else except one kind of triple.

    And any rules that you write to micromanage which strengths will be rewarded on the podium (what you "ask" of the ladies champions) will also affect every other skater in the competition who isn't in podium contention this week or this year or ever.

    Unless the rule is something like allowing everyone to earn points with whatever strengths will give them the most points, and then apply an additional rule, at championships and maybe Grand Prix only, to take the top 5-6 skaters at the end of the event, or everyone within X points of the leader, and apply a bonus/penalty rule to sort among those skaters only, raising the skaters with the appropriate jump variety and knocking down those without it.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    The rules could build in rewards for executing five different triples, e.g., a moderate bonus for doing so. [My suggestion would be something like 4 point bonus for 6 different triples (men) or 5 different triples plus double axel (women) with no underrotation, downgrade, or edge calls and no GOEs less than -1.]
    Someone at FSU did an analysis of the ladies in the 2013 Worlds FS, and only one skater fulfilled the requirements you suggest--Elizaveta Tuktamysheva. She wasn't the only skater to attempt the 5 triples, of course, just the only one to land all 5 cleanly without popping, no UR/DG, edge call or negative GOE more than -1. A 4-point bonus would have moved her from 10th place overall to 8th place. No one else would've gotten such a bonus.

    Zijun Li was the next closest skater to do so as she cleanly landed and rotated all 7 triples in her FS, but she got an edge call on her lutz, resulting in negative GOE of -.30.

    I think such a bonus rule would be great. I don't think it would change things drastically, as there were already a number of skaters at Worlds who were attempting the five basic triples. Of the skaters who didn't attempt the five basic triples, maybe a bonus would encourage some of them to add the missing triple, but for others, what they attempted is probably what they feel they have the best chance of succeeding at. No use in adding a jump they have a high rate of failure on in practice in the unlikely hopes of getting a bonus.

  13. #58
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Well now we're going to the crazy side of the spectrum. A 4 point bonus? That's way too much.

  14. #59
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    Heh. What I really want to suggest is
    2 points for six different takeoffs as doubles or higher
    4 points for six different takeoffs as triples or higher (double axel counts for women)
    4 points for eight different takeoffs as doubles or higher -- including double walley and double inside axel in the scale of values.

    Obviously, doing more of them as triples (and not getting them downgraded) would earn higher base marks.

  15. #60
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    It seems like the full range of triples should be rewarded in program components. This is something that applies to the program as a whole, not to any individual element. It should count toward a balanced program, choreography, skating skills -- stuff like that. The judges could just say, a program with a full variety of jumps is better than a program that lacks this desirable and pleasing feature.

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