I didn't say there was anything wrong with Patrick's 3-axel in this performance. But we all know that the 3-axel is not Patrick's best jump. It is a difficult jump for him to be perfect on consistently, so kudos he did a great job here, and he often does well with it which is the mark of a champion skater (overcoming problem areas). IMO, Patrick's admitted difficulty with motivation at times in the recent past has to do with the fact that the judges have consistently told him he's perfect and better than everyone else, even when he makes mistakes. By now, I suppose Patrick has come to grips with the judges' assessment that he has nothing much to work on. I suppose Patrick has found a way to motivate himself without worrying too much about the scores which obviously will always be there for him no matter what.
Men SP - 2013 Trophee Eric Bompard
- Thread starter sky_fly20
- Start date
I didn't say there was anything wrong with Patrick's 3-axel in this performance. But we all know that the 3-axel is not Patrick's best jump. It is a difficult jump for him to be perfect on consistently, so kudos he did a great job here, and he often does well with it which is the mark of a champion skater (overcoming problem areas). IMO, Patrick's admitted difficulty with motivation at times in the recent past has to do with the fact that the judges have consistently told him he's perfect and better than everyone else, even when he makes mistakes. By now, I suppose Patrick has come to grips with the judges' assessment that he has nothing much to work on. I suppose Patrick has found a way to motivate himself without worrying too much about the scores which obviously will always be there for him no matter what.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Oh, you mean like at Skate America where V/T's perfect SP was scored almost 12 points ahead of M-T/M's perfect SP, or NHK where V/T's perfect SP was almost 12 points ahead of Sui/Han's perfect SP?
The thing is, if the skaters go clean with high technical content, then they do have somewhere to go with the marks. Brown is essentially a junior coming up to senior, and he lacks a quad. Of *course* he's not going to score as high PCS as Hanyu and Chan. What were you expecting... Brown to get the same PCS as a 3-time World Champion who skated cleanly with a 4T-3T?
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- Nov 19, 2010
Sorry A&S, Patrick could have scored even higher if he had opted for an easier layout like Hanyu's, by doing a single quad and then a combo with bonus later. Maybe he chooses not to be so smart and COP savvy for principles you don't appreciate, seeing you admitted that he skated a wonderful program but wished badly thim to retire. It doesn't matter to you for the sport and its fans to have one of the best, if not the best by you, around. Like it or not, Patrick is a huge part of today's many amazing skates and the high standards achieved by the young skaters, by inspiration or by challenge. His real rivals don't critique his scores. They chase them. They get closer and Patrick keeps going. That is what competition is about.
Scores aside, fans want to see more beautiful performances, even from someone you can't stand because of scoring, or whatgever.
Scores aside, fans want to see more beautiful performances, even from someone you can't stand because of scoring, or whatgever.
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- Mar 18, 2013
I'm a frequent criticizer of Chan, but really, that was a faultless Short from him. I have no problem with him winning the Short, skating like that. Let's see what the skaters do during the free and what the judges do before we all pounce.
Aw..let's not rain on Jason Brown's parade by talking about whether he should be scored higher. He got a new personal best. He's never scored higher than 70+ internationally when he was a junior and this season he's basically beat his PB from his junior days three times! Not only that he has the top two SP scores among the U.S. men so far.
That's worth aarty: 
That's worth a
arty: - Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
Yeah, I wondered about that. Hanyu beat him on TES due to making use of the bonus with both the 3A and 3Z-3T. I guess Patrick likes the punctuation of opening with a 4T-3T. Also, in case he misses the 4T, he can still tack at 3T on to the 3Z, whereas if Hanyu misses the 3Z, he can't make up the combo.
Ha ha. Well, obviously you are stating your opinion as fact too that Chan is "by far the best artistically and especially in skating skills, in the entire world." In your case, the judges apparently agree with you and then some, so you're on solid ground. Kudos.
Still doesn't change the fact that in my honest opinion, Jason Brown is a better skater artistically and stylistically than Patrick Chan (and indeed Jason is one of top skaters in the world interpretively), which doesn't mean Jason is a better overall skater than Patrick Chan at this point.
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- Mar 18, 2013
Oh, you mean like at Skate America where V/T's perfect SP was scored almost 12 points ahead of M-T/M's perfect SP, or NHK where V/T's perfect SP was almost 12 points ahead of Sui/Han's perfect SP?
The thing is, if the skaters go clean with high technical content, then they do have somewhere to go with the marks. Brown is essentially a junior coming up to senior, and he lacks a quad. Of *course* he's not going to score as high PCS as Hanyu and Chan. What were you expecting... Brown to get the same PCS as a 3-time World Champion who skated cleanly with a 4T-3T?
And this is where we have problems. Some PCS marks are supposed to be judged separate from Technical Elements. This is the rationale behind MANY of Chan's previous wins where he was CLEARLY technically deficient on multiple elements in his program(s). You can't have it both ways buddy... either they're all judged the same, or we just call it was it is/has been/will continute to be (and what CoP STILL has yet to address): Reputation judging. Do I expect that Jason would score as well as Chan/Hanyu on some of the PCS? No? However, he DOES have many qualities that SHOULD be scored extremely high: Choreography, Performance, etc. In the range of the top skater? Yes, because of the programs and performances he gives, regardless of the technical content... which has been used so many times to defend Chan's victories.
Patrick skated a perfect program. I think his scores are well-deserved. (And he is only 3 points above Hanyu, isn't he?)
Aw..let's not rain on Jason Brown's parade by talking about whether he should be scored higher. He got a new personal best. He's never scored higher than 70+ internationally when he was a junior and this season he's basically beat his PB from his junior days three times! Not only that he has the top two SP scores among the U.S. men so far.
That's worth a
Who is it that said Jason Brown should be scored higher? I'm okay with Jason's score. I think that Patrick and Yuzu are somewhat overscored, but that's figure skating these days. For what they did, I'd have Patrick in the 93 to 95 range, and Yuzu 89 to 91. What does it matter though in any case, the numbers are ridiculous and meaningless, but most fans (especially younger fans) love the numbers and get all excited and have fun speaking in horse race terms. For me, that's not what figure skating is about.
Like my moniker, for me it's all about the Art and the Sport. Everyone can enjoy fs in the way they please and more power to everyone and their opinions.
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- Jan 25, 2013
To each their own. The fact of the matter, is that a skater without a quad in their program (especially one who is new to the senior scene) will usually not get the same PCS as a skater with a quad.
Jason is beautiful to watch, and 85 points is an excellent score considering he's just up from the juniors and he lacks a 4T.
The fact that you would have Hanyu just 4 or 5 points ahead of Brown says it all.
Just like you think the judges should be giving Patrick the impression that he's perfect, they shouldn't be giving Brown the impression that he's in the same league of Hanyu/Chan without a quad in his program.
Jason is beautiful to watch, and 85 points is an excellent score considering he's just up from the juniors and he lacks a 4T.
The fact that you would have Hanyu just 4 or 5 points ahead of Brown says it all.
Just like you think the judges should be giving Patrick the impression that he's perfect, they shouldn't be giving Brown the impression that he's in the same league of Hanyu/Chan without a quad in his program.
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- Nov 19, 2010
Aw..let's not rain on Jason Brown's parade by talking about whether he should be scored higher. He got a new personal best. He's never scored higher than 70+ internationally when he was a junior and this season he's basically beat his PB from his junior days three times this season! Not only that he has the top two SP scores among the U.S. men so far
That's worth a
Jason is having such a break through season. I see so much similarity in his success path and Patrick's: laying down a foundation of skating skills instead of forging ahead on the big jumps. He is much like the pre quad Patrick now. Of course there are inherent differences on their paths, e.g. Jason is more flexible than Patrick and he had to deal with a major growth spurt while Patrick seemed to have grown quite evenly in his teens.
Bravo to both, and Han, for whom I say a prayer for a speedy health recovery.
My point is that as a fan I'm not too worried about how Jason ranks relative to Patrick and Yuzuru at this point and all the wuzrobbing really takes away from the fact that Jason did a fantastic job today and that he is in medal contention. The PCS marks will come.
Personally I LOVE Jason to bits, but there's a lot that Jason needs to do to higher PCS, namely more power and speed. Ice coverage is great, but not the best I"ve seen relative to others. But I know Jason, he'll keep getting better in that arena as well....I'm sure that he isn't sweating it (in fact he's probably ecstatic!) so I"m not going to either.
Seeing Yuzuru live, he has amazing ice coverage and crazy transitions. I'm fine with him having higher PCS than Jason.
Yes! I was watching his novice nationals SP last night and it's amazing how much he's improved in his overall base of skating over the years: his skating skills, flexibility and non-jump elements. And while he's a touch behind the top men in jumps, when he has the jumps they are text book. That 3A was a beauty today.
I hope you won't mind that Jason might invade the Han Dynasty in the future.
It's really interesting that some find it necessary apparently to prove that Patrick's score is within reason simply because he's only 3 points above Hanyu. As I already posted, IMO, the judges left no room for what the final skater would do with the through the roof score for Patrick, so they had to keep Hanyu within range. Again, IMO, CoP has a lot of problems, but no matter. The men did a wonderful job here and at least no one can argue with the placements. All's right with the world, Chan fans. No need to get so excited. You guys always seem to get upset when anyone has the slightest difference of opinion about the scoring for Chan that doesn't agree with your views.
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- Mar 18, 2013
Yeah I think we can all agree that in this competition, Chan rightfully deserves first place after the short.
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- Jan 25, 2013
But when Chan makes errors, usually his PCS takes a hit. Even at Skate Canada, even though he made no visible error in his SP (still did a 3-3) his PCS was lower than it was here... and that's on home ice, too.
That was an absolutely flawless skate, and much more difficult with more speed than Brown's. As great a skater as Brown is shaping up to be, he's not quite yet the calibre of Chan/Takahashi/Hanyu.
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- Mar 18, 2013
I do think you missed my post where I called this Short "faultless". There's no need to defend the placements to me. Again, do I think Chan deserves the highest PCS when he skates clean? Yes. I have no problem with his marks here. I will have a problem if he is judged, as he has been in the past, based on his "talent" and not on what he puts out on the ice in front of the judges in that competition. However, that is definitely for another day. Chan is the clear leader (to me) after this Short.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Congratulations to Patrick ... and esp. to Jason (cute photo below):
@ffsportsdeglace
Shooting photo backstage pour @jasonbskates qui a terminé 3ème du programme court #TEB2013 pic.twitter.com/pzPLlnMElO
10:18 AM - 15 Nov 13
https://twitter.com/ffsportsdeglace/status/401414027403730945
10:18 AM - 15 Nov 13
https://twitter.com/ffsportsdeglace/status/401414027403730945
To each their own. The fact of the matter, is that a skater without a quad in their program (especially one who is new to the senior scene) will usually not get the same PCS as a skater with a quad.
Jason is beautiful to watch, and 85 points is an excellent score considering he's just up from the juniors and he lacks a 4T.
The fact that you would have Hanyu just 4 or 5 points ahead of Brown says it all.
Just like you think the judges should be giving Patrick the impression that he's perfect, they shouldn't be giving Brown the impression that he's in the same league of Hanyu/Chan without a quad in his program.
Like I said, I find CoP numbers ridiculous to begin with. The ISU needs to rethink the PCS scoring. Many find flaws with the way the PCS are broken down into all the separate categories, and the inconsistencies in the scoring of what is in many respects subjective. There are huge problems in many areas of this sport, so it is what it is at present. I for one think they should consider recruiting people on the judging panel who have a background in choreography for dance. Of course, we can all derive the enjoyment we feel (however we each feel) from the way things exist at present. I don't decry your enjoyment or your opinions. I do find that especially Chan fans become very sensitive at the slightest differing opinion with anything to do with him, especially differing opinions regarding the way he's scored.
In fact, I find that Hanyu despite his mellow and flowing style over the ice, is not a mature skater artistically. IMO, Jason is ahead stylistically, artistically and interpretively than Hanyu as well. No one has to agree with me.
BTW, who said that the judges should give Jason Brown the impression that he's in the same league of Hanyu/Chan without a quad? In fact, Jason is in the same league with all of the other senior men as a competitor, since he's competing in seniors now. Any competitor who doesn't go out there and feel he can compete with the best just shouldn't be out there. IMO, Jason is in a very unique league of his own stylistically and artistically, just as Patrick Chan is in a very unique league of his own re SS.
Very interesting once again, the sensitivity many Chan fans seem to have along with the need to constantly bring up other competitors to prove your opinions and/or defend Chan. Patrick Chan needs no defending. Patrick goes out there and skates the best he can and his performance speaks for itself. He doesn't give himself the scores, but neither does he need propping up by the judges.
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