Men SP - 2013 Trophee Eric Bompard

Wow, Chan and Hanyu were amazing! Love Chan's program especially. Wish he would speed up his spins just a hair, but that's really picking nits. An amazing performance of music that seems just right for him.

Hanyu -- the height on that opening quad was amazing. A quad like that could make me like quads! Reminds me of some of Sabovcik's big single jumps -- only this is a quad!

Can't wait to see this performance of Jason's program, since apparently he really nailed it. It never lets up start to finish!

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Do you feel the same about Yuzu's score? Do you feel the same way about Volosozhar/Trankov's scores?

LOL @ all the haters whining inflation. Sorry, another world record for Chan.

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Yup and to the person who wanted to claw her eyes out...go right ahead...jealousy has a way of turning humans into cats!
Way to go Patrick.....

Mrs. P said:

My point is that as a fan I'm not too worried about how Jason ranks relative to Patrick and Yuzuru at this point and all the wuzrobbing really takes away from the fact that Jason did a fantastic job today and that he is in medal contention. The PCS marks will come.

Personally I LOVE Jason to bits, but there's a lot that Jason needs to do to higher PCS, namely more power and speed. Ice coverage is great, but not the best I"ve seen relative to others. But I know Jason, he'll keep getting better in that arena as well....I'm sure that he isn't sweating it (in fact he's probably ecstatic!) so I"m not going to either.

Seeing Yuzuru live, he has amazing ice coverage and crazy transitions. I'm fine with him having higher PCS than Jason.



Yes! I was watching his novice nationals SP last night and it's amazing how much he's improved in his overall base of skating over the years: his skating skills, flexibility and non-jump elements. And while he's a touch behind the top men in jumps, when he has the jumps they are text book. That 3A was a beauty today.

I hope you won't mind that Jason might invade the Han Dynasty in the future.

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But the problem in my opinion, is that to voice a simple criticism re the high scoring means that everyone thinks I feel Patrick should not be in first place, when I clearly never said that. I also never said I had any problem whatsoever with Jason's placement or his score. Simply because Jason is obviously a very talented skater and he skated beautifully here, and simply because I feel he is better stylistically and artistically than most male skaters today (including Patrick Chan) does not mean I think that Jason should be ahead of everyone.

I suppose it's really really hard to actually discuss figure skating without people getting excited and misinterpreting a difference of opinion.

Boo, for some reason I thought this competition started at 2pm. I'm sorry I missed it, but I'm glad to hear there were some great skates. And yay for Jason Brown. Crossing my fingers for him that he has a better free skate here than he did at Skate America!

Really well skated by Patrick and Hanyu! (can't comment on anyone else yet... need to see their videos first). I suppose we should also congratulate Jeff Buttle for choreographing two very different programs. If I had to criticize one thing about Hanyu though it would be his posture/carriage... strangely sloppy (has it always been like this?). Looking forward to the LP!

Art&Sport said:

But the problem in my opinion, is that to voice a simple criticism re the high scoring means that everyone thinks I feel Patrick should not be in first place, when I clearly never said that. I also never said I had any problem whatsoever with Jason's placement or his score. Simply because Jason is obviously a very talented skater and he skated beautifully here, and simply because I feel he is better stylistically and artistically than most male skaters today (including Patrick Chan) does not mean I think that Jason should be ahead of everyone.

I suppose it's really really hard to actually discuss figure skating without people getting excited and misinterpreting a difference of opinion.

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And I also have a difference of opinion that Jason is not there yet in PCS. I'm saying this as an total Jason Brown uber. He still needs work on ice coverage/power and more intricacy in his transitions. But I'm confident that he will get there.

caitie said:

Boo, for some reason I thought this competition started at 2pm. I'm sorry I missed it, but I'm glad to hear there were some great skates. And yay for Jason Brown. Crossing my fingers for him that he has a better free skate here than he did at Skate America!

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You didn't miss much. It was four pages of actual skating and the rest was people complaining about scores. So it's a typical thread for a competition with Patrick.

Art&Sport said:

Like I said, I find CoP numbers ridiculous to begin with. The ISU needs to rethink the PCS scoring. Many find flaws with the way the PCS are broken down into all the separate categories, and the inconsistencies in the scoring of what is in many respects subjective. There are huge problems in many areas of this sport, so it is what it is at present. I for one think they should consider recruiting people on the judging panel who have a background in choreography for dance. Of course, we can all derive the enjoyment we feel (however we each feel) from the way things exist at present. I don't decry your enjoyment or your opinions. I do find that especially Chan fans become very sensitive at the slightest differing opinion with anything to do with him, especially differing opinions regarding the way he's scored.

In fact, I find that Hanyu despite his mellow and flowing style over the ice, is not a mature skater artistically. IMO, Jason is ahead stylistically, artistically and interpretively than Hanyu as well. No one has to agree with me.

BTW, who said that the judges should give Jason Brown the impression that he's in the same league of Hanyu/Chan without a quad? In fact, Jason is in the same league with all of the other senior men as a competitor, since he's competing in seniors now. Any competitor who doesn't go out there and feel he can compete with the best just shouldn't be out there. IMO, Jason is in a very unique league of his own stylistically and artistically, just as Patrick Chan is in a very unique league of his own re SS.

Very interesting once again, the sensitivity many Chan fans seem to have along with the need to constantly bring up other competitors to prove your opinions and/or defend Chan. Patrick Chan needs no defending. Patrick goes out there and skates the best he can and his performance speaks for itself. He doesn't give himself the scores, but neither does he need propping up by the judges.

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I pretty much agree with every bit of this. So shoot me now, huh? LOL!

WeakAnkles said:

I pretty much agree with every bit of this. So shoot me now, huh? LOL!

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Nah. I have to use my gun for other purposes.

Phew!

Mrs. P said:

And I also have a difference of opinion that Jason is not there yet in PCS. I'm saying this as an total Jason Brown uber. He still needs work on ice coverage/power and more intricacy in his transitions. But I'm confident that he will get there.

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Yep well, I said artistically and stylistically I feel that Jason is in a unique league of his own, and I never broke that down in terms of PCS scoring. Again PCS scoring under CoP has a great many flaws, and is often based on reputation and superior technical expertise regardless of whether presentation skills are above par (and NO Chan fans, I'm not even thinking about Patrick in this regard, so don't infer that I am). I do think that Oda because of his superior jumping ability gets higher PCS in areas where he still needs work (e.g., interpretation, transitions and choreography). Oh well, I guess now I'll have Oda fans getting all bent out of shape.

ITA that Jason still needs to work on ice coverage and speed. He has a lot still to work on technically as well in terms of refinement. It's a great thing to see someone come up with Jason's talent and work his way up and continue to develop (hopefully keeping my fingers crossed without his being over-hyped and overscored ... Chan fans sensitivities are certain to be prickled by that last comment unfortunately, thanks to ISU judges' pattern of scoring Patrick these past few years, especially with mistakes).

Ah well, young Jason Brown is simply a very compelling skater to watch on the ice IMHO, which again does not mean he was underscored here. It's really nice to see Jason performing very well and being highly rewarded, and seeing his overjoyed response. He has such a refreshing personality. Yeah, Jason lacks the quad, and I for one don't care about seeing him eke out that extra revolution. Yep Jason will need the quad to compete in today's environment, but just having one ain't gonna improve on what he's able to do out there on the ice, for me at least.

If everyone skates well in the fp, then it's quite possible and not unexpected that Han Yan may surpass Jason. I don't have a problem with that either. Certainly, Chan, Hanyu and Han Yan have more firepower than Jason. IMHO, though, none of them have the level of artistic depth and musicality that Jason possesses.

I'm not that caught up with what the judges do these days (because for me the scoring system is flawed and ultimately meaningless). OTOH, I will remark about the scoring when I feel moved to do so.

Art&Sport said:

Yep well, I said artistically and stylistically I feel that Jason is in a unique league of his own, and I never broke that down in terms of PCS scoring. Again PCS scoring under CoP has a great many flaws, and is often based on reputation and superior technical expertise regardless of whether presentation skills are above par (and NO Chan fans, I'm not even thinking about Patrick in this regard, so don't infer that I am). I do think that Oda because of his superior jumping ability gets higher PCS in areas where he still needs work (e.g., interpretation, transitions and choreography). Oh well, I guess now I'll have Oda fans getting all bent out of shape.

ITA that Jason still needs to work on ice coverage and speed. He has a lot still to work on technically as well in terms of refinement. It's a great thing to see someone come up with Jason's talent and work his way up and continue to develop (hopefully keeping my fingers crossed without his being over-hyped and overscored ... Chan fans sensitivities are certain to be prickled by that last comment unfortunately, thanks to ISU judges' pattern of scoring Patrick these past few years, especially with mistakes).

Ah well, young Jason Brown is simply a very compelling skater to watch on the ice IMHO, which again does not mean he was underscored here. It's really nice to see Jason performing very well and being highly rewarded, and seeing his overjoyed response. He has such a refreshing personality. Yeah, Jason lacks the quad, and I for one don't care about seeing him eke out that extra revolution. Yep Jason will need the quad to compete in today's environment, but just having one ain't gonna improve on what he's able to do out there on the ice, for me at least.

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Oh for goodness sake, there you go with Oda again! I didn't realize he was at this competition...

Jason loves Noburnari and was super star struck at Nebelhorn practicing with him so I'm not sure why you feel the need to put Oda down to prop Jason up. It's not necessary. Jason is my absolute favorite, but I like Noburnari a lot too. And Hannie is really growing on me too, as is Josh Farris. And I really enjoy Hanyu too. I'm not a Chan fan, but I'm not going to deny that he is the class above the rest in many ways.

And I'm not bent out shape, either thank you very much. I'm over the moon that Jason did so well, that Hannie got through his program despite a fever (I couldn't get out of bed if it was me) and that Hanyu did so well after a sub-par performance at SC.

Actually, Mrs. P, I spoke about Oda in terms of my thoughts on the scoring system, and nothing at all to do with any Jason comparisons. That's your reading.

In case Chan fans thought I was referring to Chan, I just picked out an example of a skater that came to mind who I happen to feel benefits heavily in PCS due to his superior technical expertise. You disagree, and I respect that Oda is one of your favorite skaters so excuse me for mentioning his name in that context especially since he wasn't at this particular comp. Once again though, Oda has nothing to do with Jason Brown. They both do have wonderful flexibility in their knees, but obviously Oda is the superior jumper while IMO, Jason is the superior artist on the ice. I don't need to bring up anyone to defend Jason, since there's nothing about Jason that needs defending (nor in fact any skater, IMO). Frankly, there's nothing I even said in defense of anything about Jason, and especially not about Jason's score in the sp at TEB, since it's a great score for him granted.

I'm sure Jason respects and admires Nobunari Oda, and that Jason is star struck in his senior debut season. If you think I put Oda down, then you must feel that Johnny Weir did too in his NHK commentary. Johnny was fair IMO about the way he spoke at NHK of Oda's exceptional talent, but also mentioned where Oda might improve presentation-wise.

I'm glad you are enjoying so many of the skaters these days. There certainly is a great depth of talent in the men's field.

Art&Sport said:

Actually, Mrs. P, I spoke about Oda in terms of my thoughts on the scoring system, and nothing at all to do with any Jason comparisons. That's your reading.

In case Chan fans thought I was referring to Chan, I just picked out an example of a skater that came to mind who I happen to feel benefits heavily in PCS due to his superior technical expertise. You disagree, and I respect that Oda is one of your favorite skaters so excuse me for mentioning his name in that context especially since he wasn't at this particular comp. Once again though, Oda has nothing to do with Jason Brown. They both do have wonderful flexibility in their knees, but obviously Oda is the superior jumper while IMO, Jason is the superior artist on the ice. I don't need to bring up anyone to defend Jason, since there's nothing about Jason that needs defending (nor in fact any skater, IMO). Frankly, there's nothing I even said in defense of anything about Jason, and especially not about Jason's score in the sp at TEB, since it's a great score for him granted.

I'm sure Jason respects and admires Nobunari Oda, and that Jason is star struck in his senior debut season. If you think I put Oda down, then you must feel that Johnny Weir did too in his NHK commentary. Johnny was fair IMO about the way he spoke at NHK of Oda's exceptional talent, but also mentioned where Oda might improve presentation-wise.

I'm glad you are enjoying so many of the skaters these days. There certainly is a great depth of talent in the men's field.

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I did hear what Johnny said about Oda and I didn't have a problem with it. I get that not everyone enjoys his skating or his programs.

But I don't agree that Oda is a great example of someone that gets sparkling high PCS because of his technical ability. To compare Oda with Chan in that regard is a bit much. He got 40 for a cleanish (UR aside) SP at NHK, which is hardly a high score with his co-patriots and Chan getting 45-50+ (Not to mention that Javier, who I'd argue has worse SS than Oda, got 40+ for a subpar performance).

Here's what Jason said about Nobunari on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasonbskates/status/382905067839315969

Honored and excited to be on practice ice with Nobunari Oda! I've admired his skating for years! He's incredible! pic.twitter.com/hBVywgpYvK

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It sounds like he thinks VERY highly of Nobunari. So while you might not care for his skating, Nobunari seems to be well-regarded by other skaters. And I'm sure if we had someone of Nobunari's ability in the U.S., I'm sure fans would be delighted.

MEN'S SHORT PROGRAM - VIDEOS (By Starting Order) - Updated

Warm-Up Group 1

1. Nan SONG (CHN) Short Program
2. Jason BROWN (USA) Short Program, 2nd Copy
3. Alexander MAJOROV (SWE) Short Program
4. Han YAN (CHN) Short Program, 2nd Copy

Warm-Up Group 2

5. Florent AMODIO (FRA) Short Program
6. Michal BREZINA (CZE) Short Program
7. Patrick CHAN (CAN) Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy
8. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) Short Program, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

RESULT

Overall Result, Segment Result, Protocols

Mrs. P said:

I did hear what Johnny said about Oda and I didn't have a problem with it. I get that not everyone enjoys his skating or his programs.

But I don't agree that Oda is a great example of someone that gets sparkling high PCS because of his technical ability. To compare Oda with Chan in that regard is a bit much. He got 40 for a cleanish (UR aside) SP at NHK, which is hardly a high score with his co-patriots and Chan getting 45-50+ (Not to mention that Javier, who I'd argue has worse SS than Oda, got 40+ for a subpar performance).

Here's what Jason said about Nobunari on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jasonbskates/status/382905067839315969



It sounds like he thinks VERY highly of Nobunari. So while you might not care for his skating, Nobunari seems to be well-regarded by other skaters.

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Hey, I have no argument with how respected and admired Nobu is by other skaters or by other fans. I still have my own opinions. ITA with Johnny's comments about Oda, and I still think that some of Oda's PCS scores are overly high because of his exceptional jumping ability, great ice coverage and soft knees. Oda is packaged very well, but aside from his infectious smile, he's not an engaging skater for me in terms of his presentation skills, musicality and artistry.

And, there you go again misreading by inferring that I was in any way comparing Oda against Chan. I was not making any comparisons between the two of them in any regard. But misread if you must. And, enjoy the skaters that make you happy.

Art&Sport said:

Hey, I have no argument with how respected and admired Nobu is by other skaters or by other fans. I still have my own opinions. ITA with Johnny's comments about Oda, and I still think that some of Oda's PCS scores are overly high because of his exceptional jumping ability, great ice coverage and soft knees. Oda is packaged very well, but aside from his infectious smile, he's not an engaging skater for me in terms of his presentation skills, musicality and artistry.

And, there you go again misreading by inferring that I was in any way comparing Oda against Chan. I was not making any comparisons between the two of them in any regard. But misread if you must. And, enjoy the skaters that make you happy.

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In case Chan fans thought I was referring to Chan, I just picked out an example of a skater that came to mind who I happen to feel benefits heavily in PCS due to his superior technical expertise.

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I took that as, that Nobunari gets higher PCS because he does clean programs with great technical ability, just as Chan does. Not that you were comparing Oda to Chan. I'm sorry that I lack the intelligence to understand your sparkling and insightful commentary on skating!

What I'm saying is that Oda does not get high PCS, even when he skates well As far as I'm concerned the judges do consider Oda inferior to the top skaters, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Ice coverage, skating skills DO account into PCS and good packaging does matter. If you're not an artist, you might as well do programs that help you perform them to the best of your ability and boost up the P/E mark.

Anyway, Nobunari isn't at this competition, so I'll end the discussion here.

Sorry, everybody.

Art&Sport said:

It's really interesting that some find it necessary apparently to prove that Patrick's score is within reason simply because he's only 3 points above Hanyu. As I already posted, IMO, the judges left no room for what the final skater would do with the through the roof score for Patrick, so they had to keep Hanyu within range. Again, IMO, CoP has a lot of problems, but no matter. The men did a wonderful job here and at least no one can argue with the placements. All's right with the world, Chan fans. No need to get so excited. You guys always seem to get upset when anyone has the slightest difference of opinion about the scoring for Chan that doesn't agree with your views.

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You misunderstand. I pointed out that he was only 3 points above Hanyu because you said his score was way above everyone else's. And I'm not even that big of a Chan-fan. Takahashi is my guy. But give the devil his due. How, by the way, do judges "leave room" under COP?

WeakAnkles said:

I pretty much agree with every bit of this. So shoot me now, huh? LOL!

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Mrs. P said:

Nah. I have to use my gun for other purposes.

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Adding a new Kristen Wiig hat to your rotation, Mrs. P ? (Or feel free to substitute the name of your favorite comedienne .)

Mrs. P said:

Typically judges will score the SS skills then all the other marks will go along that mark regardless of how that skater actually performed in those other elements. People griped about Gracie Gold getting high PCS due to her SS despite lacking in the other areas, for example.

However today, the judges -- albeit in a small way -- did differentiate the marks a little bit, giving Han the edge in skating skills (which is correct) and Jason the edge in everything else.

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And thx to Mrs. P for answering my question about corridor-type scoring.

golden411 said:

Adding a new Kristen Wiig hat to your rotation, Mrs. P ? (Or feel free to substitute the name of your favorite comedienne .)

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I Kristen Wiig. She was absolute hoot in Bridesmaids. I also heart Gilda Radner. I love Amy Pohler and Tina Fey also.