Skaters Facing Pay Cuts

[Jimmy Hoffa]

Originally posted by Jennifer Lyon
2. Michelle Kwan is nice and reliable and we all watched her grow up. The USFSA couldn't ask for a better competitor. But as a celebrity, let's face it-- the girl is BORING. Her interviews are all the same. ("I had fun... I did my best... I felt good out there.") And does she even have a life off the ice? Just once, I'd like to hear her say something that doesn't make her sound like some PR department's puppet. Just once, I'd like to see her behave in a way that's less than perfect, if not a wee bit naughty.

Oh, like leaving, excuse me, FIRING a longtime coach and choreographer during the Olympic season? And people alledging that she did it to be with her boyfriend? Yeah, nobody hated her guts for that one. Everyone thought it was sooooo cool and refreshing and feisty. Nobody thought that she was a backstabbing hateful [color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color] whose entire family deserved to be beaten up worse than Kerrigan in 1994.

[berthes ghost]

pipsqueak, reading your post I can't help but think that you've totally gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick.

1. For centuries civilizations have been dividing things into male and female: look at any romance language. For a humorous look at this, listen to Laurie Anderson's "Que es mas macho?" The idea that a school bus has to be either feminine or masculine is idiotic, yet there you have it.

This has nothing to do with gender. All men and women have both feminine and malculine qualities and life is a constant mix of the two in each individual.

Figure skating, IMHO, is most definately a 'feminine' sport. It doesn't matter if it's a woman or a man doing the skating. Line, posture, musical interpretation, pointed toes, presentation, subjective judging based on presentation,etc...

It's not just about the men, women skaters strugle with this balance on a daily basis, with the judges always awarding the more femine aspects over the more male ones.

2. Perception is key. It was clearly spelled out as "THOUGHT of as gay". Like that case in Germany recently where the boy wasn't beat up for BEING Jewish, but tortured into admitting that his clothes made him LOOK Jewish.

The gay guy sitting next to me at Euros didn't gasp in horror at the neon floral wrap-around blouse with ruffled trim at the wrists that one male skater wore because of homophoba.

No one was saying that all male skaters are gay. But figure skating, no matter what continent it's watched on, is a sport percieved of as "gay".

Yeah, Americans are perhaps too caught up in femininity in men, that's why the ladies event is the big seller in the US while Europeans watch the least athletic of all the skating sports: Ice Dance. It's not that they don't see Dance as "gay". They just don't mind "gay" sports.

BTW, European events aren't full of large group of straight guys on 'boys night out'. They are just as much overwhelmingly populated with female viewers as US events.

3. Greg Louganis, Carl Lewis, Rudy Galindo, Martina Navatolova, etc..: Gays and Lesbians are attracted to individual sports. It's hard to say why these pre-pubescent kids, who mostly don't even know that they are gay, graviate away from team sports toward individual ones, but it's a statistic not opinion.

I laugh at the idea that there are a lot of out gays in FS, but I doubt that there are just as many gays in Football and Hockey. People aren't randomly assigned to sports (Even in comunist countries), they chose them.

Yes, we are all free to be you and me (thanks Marlo ), but gay men like figure skating. They like to do it. They like to watch it. They choose figure skating. Why not capitolize on it rather than hiding behind this PC image of all humans being just as equal as model-Ts off an assembly line?

[Mathman]

Setting aside the gay question for the moment (are wrestling and bodybuilding gay sports, as is popularly perceived?), from my readings on this thread now I think that what figure skating needs is for Sasha Cohen

(a) to win the World Championship next month;
(b) to have an affair with Ben Affleck;
(c) to pose naked in playboy;
(d) to get a better hairdo; and
(e) to win the gold medal in 2006.

That will return the sport to the immense and lucrative popularity that it had in the 1960s and 70s.

Mathman

[Jimmy Hoffa]

Originally posted by berthes ghost
3. Greg Louganis, Carl Lewis, Rudy Galindo, Martina Navatolova, etc..: Gays and Lesbians are attracted to individual sports. It's hard to say why these pre-pubescent kids, who mostly don't even know that they are gay, graviate away from team sports toward individual ones, but it's a statistic not opinion.

I laugh at the idea that there are a lot of out gays in FS, but I doubt that there are just as many gays in Football and Hockey. People aren't randomly assigned to sports (Even in comunist countries), they chose them.

This doesn't account for kids who don't realize that they're gay, but one possible reason for "out" athletes to gravitate to individual sports is that they don't have to worry about being beat up in the locker room by their teammates.

[Jennifer Lyon]

OK, this thread has gone off in two totally different directions. I will try to address both.

1. When I used the word "naughty" in my previous post, I was not referring to illegal, deviant, or unhealthy behavior. I also do not equate "naughty" with that B-word that rhymes with witch. By "naughty", I mean someone with a hint of an attitude, someone who thinks a certain male skater looks hot in those leather pants, someone who'd rather listen to Courtney Love than Celine Dion, someone who lives with her boyfriend and admits it, someone who doesn't like the ISU's latest rule and admits it, someone who'll tell her pushy parents to stuff it, someone who cares passionately about some social or political cause and isn't afraid to let the whole skating world know it, someone who will make an occasional sarcastic comment with a wink and a nod. I'm not saying Michelle should necessarily do any or all of these things. But she'd seem more "real" to me if she did.
About Michelle firing her coach... Yeah, she did take some heat for that. But a lot of skating fans blamed it on her dad. They saw it as his decision-- or at least a decision he heavily influenced-- not a decision Michelle made herself. And firing your coach doesn't qualify as "naughty." In some cases, it's a wise decision. In other instances, the skater is making a big mistake. Personally, the period where Michelle's dad was her coach reminded me too much of Surya Bonaly and her mother. (Incidentally, Surya doing a backflip at the 1998 Olympics is above and beyond "naughty" and I enjoyed every second of it.)
About Michelle's image compared to Dorothy's... Dorothy was an amateur skater. Back then, you didn't see skaters on TV several times a year. The mainstream media completely ignored them until a few weeks before the Olympics. Agents and PR people and public images came into play *after* a skater won her Olympic gold medal. Dorothy had no idea there was so much pre-Olympic hype surrounding her until someone delivered a stack of telegrams wishing her good luck and she realized these were all from strangers. If you watch footage of her during her amateur careers, her body language indicates that she's a somewhat self-conscious young woman. She squints at the marks on the scoreboard because she's not wearing her glasses. On the Olympic podium, she examines her gold medal because she wants to know what it looks like. Maybe by that time, she had realized that she'd become famous but it hadn't sunk in yet. Michelle, OTOH, hasn't been an amateur skater since Nancy got whacked on the knee. She had an agent before she ever won a senior-level event. Both she and Tara were media-trained at a young age and it shows. They said what the adults told them to say-- no more, no less. They knew the cameras were there. They knew they were famous. I think they also knew that the whack had tainted the sport's image and that it was important for them to look and act like good little girls. They were the Olsen twins of skating, two perfectly-groomed child stars. Thanks to Christine Brennan, we heard some not-so-nice stories about Tara and her family. But Brennan worshipped the Kwans and pushed the "perfect little girl" image even farther. Dorothy Hamill didn't have to deal with any of this at such a young age. I also don't see the current up-and-coming young skaters having to deal with it. Sarah Hughes didn't have a PR machine at 14. The kids who are making their way up the ladder now are not polished media stars. The pendulum has swung back the other way.

2. About gays in skating... I think the powers-that-be could learn a lesson from the WNBA. While few of the players are officially out, the league knows it has a huge lesbian fan base and they're willing to cater to these fans, at least to a certain extent. While it's true that the TV network ALWAYS makes sure you know which players are married or have boyfriends, I've also heard about players signing autographs at Gay Pride events. Imagine if a couple of skaters went and did the same. They don't necessarily have to be out gay skaters. They don't necessarily have to be men. They just have to sit at a table, sign some autographs, and maybe give away some free tickets to COI. They could advertise in gay newspapers and magazines. They could offer special ticket packages to gay and lesbian groups. These are just a few ideas. This sort of thing sends a message to gay fans-- we know you're here, we welcome you to come to our show.

[Mathman]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, JL. About Michelle, I guess it's different strokes for different folks. I like it that she presents a wholesome public image and saves her "naughtiness" for behind closed doors. She does not owe us a JLo act, nor an exposition of her political views, nor a public fight with her parents.

About marketing the sport to the gay audience, I don't know quite what I think about that. Two years ago I went to the Adult National Figure Skating Championship in Ann Arbor. I went at the on-line invitation of an adult skater who was participating and who was an active contributor to Golden Skate at the time.

There was plenty of opportunity to hang out socially between events. As far as I could tell, in these common areas and the cafeteria, every man except me was openly gay and flaunting it. It was quite a cultural experience for me. I came away feeling like, so this is how gay men act when there are no straights around.

So I guess I'm wondering if maybe the sport is already doing as much as it can to attract the interest (and the money) of the gay market.

Mathman

PS. If all gay skaters came out, that would spoil the game of guessing who is gay and who is straight that dominates the discussions on some figure skating boards.

[berthes ghost]

Nah.

Skating may be filled with Welder's daughters and Fisherman's sons, but they love to pretend that they are some victorian elite club with wood paneled club rooms and a dignified air where such things are just not discussed. Fans love to support this patrician ideal as well. Simply asking if La Kwan is dating anyone will get a thread locked over at MKF faster than you can say 'tabloid headline'.

We all know that JLo is straight, but that doesn't stop people from discussing every minor detail of her life.

We now all know that Brian Orser is gay, but what do we really know? Who he dated? How he came out? Not such public knowledge and certaily not regualrly discussed on FS boards. Perhaps you heard some good gossip at Adult Nats?

[Joesitz]

This thread has so many topics!

Michelle is a very private person and sometimes mysterious. This is not unlike certain celebrities in the entertainment business. Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward are a very private married couple. Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell are another very private couple and they are not married.

Johnny Weir, as far as I know is a very private young man. So far he has not been driving under the influence. In fact we don't know if he drinks.

All of this is basically: "SO WHAT". Let La Kwan and Johnny skate, and let's hope there is a picture for Joanne Woodward.

Joe

[Mathman]

Joe, I like your Woodward-Newman analogy. To me, when celebrities try to attract attention to themselves by carrying on in public, this does not make them more interesting, but rather less so. It makes them just like everyone else.

MM

[Joesitz]

Yeah Mathman, but, unfortunately, gossip rules and makes a celebrity more than not. I like Kwan's mysterious ways.

Joe

[RealtorGal]

Originally posted by Joesitz
Yeah Mathman, but, unfortunately, gossip rules and makes a celebrity more than not. I like Kwan's mysterious ways.

Joe

I like the fact that Michelle insists on keeping her private llife PRIVATE. I'm also glad that she seems to be leading a family-based, moral life. Celebrities do have the right to privacy, but as role models, they have a certain responsibility to their fans, particularly their young ones.

[Kwanisqueen81]

I agree with Joe, Mathman and RealtorGal!!

One of the major reasons many Kwan fans like her is because she presents a wholesome image. Not just that but we feel that it's not just PR "image" That is to say She really is a private, family-oriented, girl-next-door. Ok Skater-next-door. There were pictures of her going to a basket ball game with her sister, and brother. She is a private person. I like that. I don't care about Michelle's love life, polical views, ect. I just like her skating. I guess that is her appeal. She is a throw back to a much simplier era. I support her right to privacy.

[Rgirl]

JenniferLyon, [Note: Major changes made to content from initial version.]
I loved your second post! Very well thought out, rational, and well articulated ideas. It would be great if the majority of other posters would agree or disagree with what you actually said, but as I'm sure I don't need to tell you, a lot of people are still going to read statements such as "I'm not saying Michelle should necessarily do any or all of these things. But she'd seem more 'real' to me if she did" as if you were saying, "You want Michelle to be something she's not."

I also thought you clarified a lot of your opinions from your first post. But I think that often when one tries to write about ideas that are multifaceted, beyond stereostypes, and not based simply on fan worship it takes more than one post to do so. At least for myself, when I see something in print, especially something dealing with complicated issues, I always see things that seem too generalized, repetitive, or just not saying what I meant. Forums like this are great for ideas that can be expressed in a couple of short sentences or at most a paragraph. But if what you are trying to get across is more complex or has arguments that go beyond pigeonholing or ad hominem, it's tough. I think most posters either don't have the desire or time to read a post where you take the time to flesh out and substantiate ideas that may be considered "subtle"--at least in the context of an online message forum--and thus often respond emotionally. It's understandable, but still frustrating--especially if your opinions are not the same as the majority. But as long as things are expressed within the guidelines, I think it's best to be yourself. Even if I disagree with some or all of what someone says, even if they make me angry--as long as it's not an attack, which neither of your posts were, toward anyone--IMO the whole point of a general forum is to be tolerant of others' ideas and to consider others' points of view.

In other words, people don't read these forums as if they were reading a magazine, which I'm sure you know.

Having said that and speaking of being oneself, I'm going to be myself and write a long response that may be misinterpreted and certainly will be read by very few Anyway, it seemed very clear to me that you were NOT saying that Michelle Kwan should do anything other than what she's doing. I thought you made it clear that just for your own interest in figure skating, it would be nice to see some top US skater, perhaps not any current skater, but someone in the near future who is naturally less conservative, naturally more open about speaking out about controversial issues, naturally more inclined to say whatever is on her mind whether it makes for good PR or not, naturally more "fiesty" for lack of a better word. Such a skater won't be everyone's cup of tea, but neither are some of the current or recent "ideal" skaters. In other words, you say tomato, I say tomahto

I didn't get the idea that you wanted Michelle or any current skater to change. In your first post you said you find MK boring, but that's your prerogative. Others find her endlessly fascinating and that's their prerogative. That's how I interpreted what you said.

However, you also said in your first post--and I realize you clarified and reconsidered some of your opinions in your second post, which is fine, in fact we could probably all use more reconsideration of our opinions; even if we don't change them, I think the process is valuable--that you felt the eligible skating world needed a Madonna or Cher. To many people, both skating fans and the average viewer, Michelle is their figure skating "Madonna" in that they find her endlessly fascinating. But I think for the vast majority of US viewers of televised skating, where the really big money is, their feelings about Michelle, be they positive, neutral, or negative, do not affect whether or not they watch figure skating. IMO the same would be true if over the last 10 years the US ladies' skater with Michelle's record were the skating equivalent of Madonna or Cher.

My rationale for saying this is based on the enormous popularity of talk radio from the late '80s to the mid '90s. In terms of ratings--and for the sake of simplifying the argument--the two biggest jocks were Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh. Liberals had Stern; conservatives had Limbaugh. For a number of years, each was a superstar, but neither one was enough to sustain the popularity of what I'll call "extreme" talk radio. Even Madonna and Cher's careers go in cycles. Therefore, I think that even if the US had a ladies skater who since '96 had won everything Michelle has, heck, even if she had an OGM, I don't think the trends in skating overall would be any different. Same numbers of viewers, just different viewers.

Also, I think the decline in figure skating viewership is a relative one. I think a lot of people, especially those who came of age in the early or mid '90s, feel that that level of interest in figure skating was normal. It wasn't. Those were "boom" years that came about due to a combination of factors, ie, two instead of four years between Winter Olympics in '92 and '94; Kristi Yamaguchi becoming the first US OGM in ladies FS since Dorothy Hamill in '76; the Harding/Kerrigan scandal; Perestroika and its affect on skaters such as Gordeeva & Grinkov, Katerina Witt, and especially Oksana Baiul because of the whole orphan story, which the media got hold of and speed skated; an unusually rich time in pro skating with skaters such as Kristi Yamaguchi, Paul Wylie, and Kurt Browning entering the pros, not to mention Oksana Baiul, who at the '94 Olympics audiences met, were generally mesmerized by, and then saw her immediately turn pro; and the whole mega fitness movement of the '90s. Plus I'm sure there are others.

Sometimes one person can drive an entire "boom" the way Mikhail Baryshnikov did with dance from the mid '70s to the early '80s. But he was not only a dance star, but was also in several very popular movies. Baryshnikov was Hollywood A-list not as an actor, but as a celebrity. Plus his talent as a dancer (not to mention his libido--and it was the '70s) was enormous enough to keep people interested for almost 10 years. But the peak was was really only five years, at the most.

There was also a "mini boom" after the '84 Olympics due to Torvil & Dean, but it only lasted a few years. In that case, I think you had a lot of dance aficianados going to see T&D on tour because they had the money to go to a lot more cities than dance companies, which were in a slump then because of the Reagan cutbacks to arts funding.

Not that I don't think skaters' personalities aren't factors in the popularity of the sport, it's just that I think true celbrities in figure skating come along only once every 50 years at most. Sonja Henie both won everything and was a movie star, but times were much simpler then. You could carry a musical comedy film with reputation, beauty, and spins on the ice. Not so today.

Getting back to your most recent post (and trying to move this mutha along, lol), although I agree that certain sports writers, especially Christine Brennan loved Michelle and as you said "pushed the 'good little girl' image even farther," I think Brennan, of whom I am NO fan, saw the market favored a "good little girl" star and that by '97, there was a void in that area, since that was when Oksana was showing major signs of trouble. For one thing, Oksana was no longer a little girl (she grew five inches and gained 25 pounds, which is the expected weight gain for that increase in height, during the first nine months after the Olympics--not unusual, BTW, for girls at that age, and especially not unusual for female athletes at that age who go from extremely intense training and dieting, which Oksana herself has reported, to less intense training and a more appropriate caloric intake); for another she was experimenting with independence by going out to Manhattan clubs for drag queen, which I had a blast at myself in my late teens and early 20s, but Mr. and Mrs. Conservative Middle Class America don't want their doe-eyed orphan story to go that way; and of course, sadly, there was the drinking, the DUI, the increasingly bad skating, erratic behavior, etc. The poor girl needed and eventually got help, but a lot of fans who had loved her in Lillehammer really hated her by the end of '97.

So I think Christine Brennan shrewdly saw not only Michelle's potential as a champion, but also saw her as the ideal skater to be the yin to the whole Harding/Kerrigan scandal-Oksana breakdown yang.

I think that history shows that eventually, a skater like the one you described will emerge as a great champion. Though all issues of personality aside, I have no doubt that Michelle's competitive record will stand for decades. Just quickly, for one thing, she's the most consistent triple jumper ladies skating has ever seen; she's got the presentation skills; and her career as a champion began when few ladies did 3/3s and those who could were inconsistent; and her as her career has continued, those skaters who were both consistent and could do 3/3s kept suffering career-ending injuries (IMO, this is due to FS boots that are not designed for skaters to do 3/3s safely over time, but that's another topic). I'm not taking anything away from Michelle's achievements--nobody else comes close to her competitive dominance for this long--but her competitive career is occurring during a time in the sport where the technical zenith for ladies was being able to consistently do a seven-triple LP with one or two 3/2 combos.

I believe that eventually, and perhaps before the 2010 Olympics, the already designed figure skating hinged boots will be accepted, enabling more skaters to do 3/3s without injury; training techniques for doing seven-triple programs including one or two 3/3s will be refined; and someone will come along with the technical brilliance to do all that. For those who really love Michelle, no one will ever take her place. For other fans and those still very young or not yet born, Michelle will be like Peggy Fleming or Dorothy Hamill is to many younger skaters of today. And that technically brilliant skater just might also have great dance ability and artistic presentation, though might not be balletic or lyrical. And that technically brilliant with great dance ability and artistic presentation just might have a personality and charisma that is more like Madonna. I just hope she doesn't pay homage to Madonna by wearing a super torpedo bra costume

After all, it was from '84 through '88 that Katerina Witt was at her competitive peak, and TIME magazine called her "Madonna on ice." Had KW not been reigned in by the East German regime, wee doggies, there's no telling how interesting she might have been. She certainly hasn't wasted her freedom.

Historically and cyclically, it makes sense to me that the dominant ladies skater of the glam '80s was Witt and that her counterpart from the mid '90s to ??? is Kwan. So JLy (geez, I hope people don't call you that, unless you want them to), mark my words, figure skating will have the equivalent of a Cher or Madonna soon. And after winning the 2222 OGM, when she skates her Olympic exhibition program to "Hole," I'll by jumping up and down (if I can).
Rgirl

PS Nobody will read this either

[berthes ghost]

Vivie Ann Hulten, Dick Button, Carol Heiss, Toller Cranston, John Curry, Debi Thomas, Tonya Harding, Surya, Nancy, Rudy, Weiss... the sport is literally pepered with people who 'tell it like they see it', yet all feel 'opressed by the man'. I guess it's just a microcsom of life.

[Jennifer Lyon]

RGirl,
Yes, I remember those incidents with Lloyd (loved that one) and Midori. At the time Midori made her apology, I had recently read a book about the Japanese educational system. According to this book, apologies are a part of Japanese culture. If a kid gets lost on a field trip, everyone would apologize to everyone-- the kid would apologize for wandering off, the kid's parents would apologize for their child's behavior, the teacher would apologize for losing the kid, and the manager of the field trip site would apologize for not finding the kid sooner. So I viewed Midori's apology (and her reasons for making it) in light of this context.

Back to Ms. Kwan (and in a sense, back to the original topic of this thread)... The reason why I pointed out her "boringness" in the first place was because we were discussing why the popularity of this sport has declined. I'm not blaming Michelle, mind you. She is who she is. But when a sport doesn't have a big media star, the general public loses interest. Tennis needed Andre Agassi because Pete Sampras was... well, a lot like Michelle. If Shannon Miller had been as perky as Mary Lou Retton, it wouldn't have mattered that she "only" won silver in 1992. When the Detroit Pistons won the NBA Finals back in 1989 and 1990, the flamboyant Dennis Rodman received more media attention than the quiet and steady Joe Dumars. There's a difference between being a champion and being a celebrity.