Skaters Facing Pay Cuts

**Mathman** · 02-04-2004, 02:43 PM

Bijoux, gosh, just when I get all riled up in my Michelle-protector mode, you go and get all rational and reasonable on me! But seriously, thank you for not responding in kind when I went off on you a little bit in my previous post.

About beauty, this is going to sound so corny I can't believe I'm saying it, but all of the skaters that you mentioned -- Michelle, Tara, Sarah, Sasha, Jenny -- have the beauty that God blessed them with. As for the eye of the beholder, "those that have eyes, let them see."

Do you know the song, "Everything is beautiful at the ballet," from Chorus Line? That's how it is in figure skating. And in fact I think that is the primary appeal of the sport to its youngest participants. Little girls like to dress up in frilly costumes and have everybody tell them how pretty they look. This doesn't have much appeal to little boys, who think it's more fun to play games where they get to bash into each other, hence the dearth of male skaters in the U.S. at all levels.

For me, figure skating is my temporary escape into a better and more beautiful world. It provides both solace and inspiration. What more could we ask of any sport? What more could we ask of Michelle Kwan than that she continue to give, performance after performance, everything that is her heart to give. Some people (foolishly in my opinion) say that the sport would be better off if Michelle moved on, allowing other skaters a chance to become stars. To me, this is backward. We need more Michelle Kwans, not (one) fewer. What is holding the other ladies back is not Michelle Kwan, it is their own skating. If you want to be the champion, you have to beat the champion.

There she stands.

Mathman

**citrus** · 02-04-2004, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Bijoux

And finally, I too Mathman don't understand why guys would rather watch football than these cute girls in tiny costumes?

:( :(

Ahem. It isn't the players but the cheerleaders & the "fans" don't watch as much since the cheerleader coverage have dwindled to almost none.

**Doggygirl** · 02-04-2004, 06:01 PM

Couldn't agree more - FS needs MORE Michelle Kwans....not one less. It takes the great ones to raise the bar and bring us all more enjoyment in the future. And hats off to the challengers!! It takes courage to believe you can raise the bar, and then go for it.

Just a point on my Nascar analogy. That was NOT in any way meant to compare Figure Skating with Auto Racing. It is truly an example of a sport where FAN participation (at live events, and TV's tuned) is acknowledged, respected, and encouraged. Any sport that is suffering from dwindling audience participation should be trying to figure out what they are doing right to promote and acknowledge the importance of the fan participation - from a business point of view. (and I'm sure Nascar is not an exclusive example - just one that came to mind. I live a couple miles from Chicagoland Speedway where they run the Tropicana 400. I see that fan frenzy first hand every year. It's contagious.)

DG

**Bijoux** · 02-04-2004, 11:04 PM

While I agree that looks should not matter is ladies skating or what they do that's scandalous, it matters very much what they say, how they look, how connected their coach is, etc.

In tennis, looks are nice but they are not judged by judges like in FS. Nothing is subjective except some of the line calls before the age of videotape review. If you win enough games, then the sets, you have won the match. That is why anyone from shapely Chris, (very popular in the USA and world) and mannish Martina could be greats regardless of looks or body type. Tennis is strictly a sport, not an artistic sport when you get judged on who you are, your record, how you look, how popular you are with fans, your face, costume, bodytype. No fat skaters either.

I love our world trio, they are among the prettiest skaters, and more importantly to me, they are the 3 best skaters in the world.
And that includes Fumie and Shizuka. But that is my taste.
World judges seem to like Fumie in the bronze. Winning or losing also depends on which way the political winds are blowing, whether Yuri Balkov is around an on and on.

In pro comps, the faves win a lot. If you even have a pro career it depends a lot on your reputation and if one of two people like you -Medals help of course, but if you are a diva or not a team player, Scott or Tommy won't put up with your crap for long if you are not a hard worker who gets along with others.

The biggest example is Tonya Harding....great skater, with big tricks but who was considered the opposite of the Ice Princess, her behavior did not conform. All the insiders thought she was trash, and she was up against the talented and very Princess like Kristy and Nancy. Her crew felt she needed to take Kerrigan out to get the top prizes. No other sport works like FS.

**Bijoux** · 02-04-2004, 11:35 PM

I think the USFSA and ISU need and want Michelle to win as much as possible. She is the money, honey, as you well know! I had no favorites for a long time, but after JK's SP, she is now my favorite in that I wish her to win as she is good for the sport and most importantly, a joy to watch. Sasha is wonderful but somehow lacking a big star quality presence. Jenny's got it.

Our trio is talented enough to sweep Worlds if nerves were not an issue.

Michelle IMO is the best competitor and the most consistent skater in the history of the sport. I never implied she should leave. But another discussion is needed to say she has been beaten by Tara, Sarah, Maria, and Irina. She did not raise the bar technically. A dozen skaters before and after that can lay claim. At Nationals, only Tara has bested her. I wish for us Sarah stayed in because she is a strong confident competitor. I feel she had a lot of great performances left. Alas, Yale has gained the dynamo woman-I wonder what world she will conquer next?

**Joesitz** · 02-05-2004, 12:00 AM

Bijoux - What you say about Figure Skating has a lot of merit. Certainly in a less subjective sport as Women's Skiing, there is leittle room for subjectivity.

In Womens Figure Skating, there is a lot of 'good looks' going for it as a subjective element. I agree with you. MK is is good looking as is Sasha Cohen as it Jenny Kirk as is Fumie Siguouri as is Shizuka Arakawa and as is Sarah Meier of Switzerland and Galina Maniachenko of the Ukraine.

How much of that plays a role in scoring, we are not absolutely sure but I would suspect, a little.

If Michelle Kwan has all that power as you seem to think, just what is that power? I don't see it except that I am a Kwan fan and love her skating. I see nothing wrong with that. I also liike Galina Manmiachenko. Do you think she will get all that power?

Joe

**Bijoux** · 02-05-2004, 02:20 AM

I don't see how. She is nearing the end of her career, and has not won any thing big. Michelle is powerful as she has been in for years, has won a zillion medals, is very popular with US skate fans and seemingly other countries' fans as well. She is also very rich, has had great endorsement deals, and is held in esteem by her peers and the ISU and USFSA. She is their moneymaker for tickets and TV coverage. How could Galina compete with any of that? I like her skating, BTW, but we haven't had a ladies skater out of Europe that conquered since Katarina. Without the soviet sports machine I doubt we will. Only Japan seems able to rival our dominance in ladies singles.

Until recently, Irina was the big star of the East. She cannot rival Kwan's accomplishments, and she is not nearly as rich. $ is power. She is adorable and many fans grew to love her (but not as much as Michelle!) All the Russians and anyone else make their careers happen here as Pros. If skating really loses coverage/fan interest here, no one will have much work.

Joe, do you think the prize money and show $ was too much? Did these skaters help price themselves out of future careers?

**Joesitz** · 02-05-2004, 10:17 AM

Bijoux - Michelle has, as Evita would say, a little star quality. She is recognizable outside of figure skating fandom. She got this way by her appearances in two Olys (both of which she did not win gold). Many people at the Olys are not figure skating fans in the sense that we are but just casual viewers with casual interest. However, the crowds are in her corner. I can not explain that but it is fact. I doubt it is your definition of 'power' that makes the public root for her. She does have money, and she does increase revenues in show skating. But I think it goes beyond that, and yes, I think it is a bit eerie. Let's see if Dick and Peggy mention the crowd roaring in Dortmund? Some posters have said she is not that popular in Europe.

Imo, Sasha came on the scene as being feisty but not very consistent in her jumps. This has been changing for some time. Her personality has softened. She has now earned a large fan base and is the most likely one to replace MK in popularity when MK calls it quits. And MK has to call it quits first which puzzled Tara. Sasha's road to gold is quite realistic, but will she become America's Sweetheart?

Jenny is part of the US stockpile. She's the lucky one this year and she has a shot at the Oly podium if she can keep up with the rush to gold of so many skaters. Can she become America's Sweetheart?

I believe for a skater to become "America's Sweetheart" the skater must win over the casual fan as well as the avid fan. (A litlle PR hype wouldn't hurt.)

But who could become "Figure skater Queen of the World"?

As for "Shows", I think there is a whole business angle there which we are not privvy to. I'm sure Tom Collins makes a few mistakes but not significantly.

Cheers - Joe

**eyria** · 02-05-2004, 02:36 PM

I think all this talk about skaters' looks is beside the point (and kind of unpleasant).

It's my opinion that the decline of figure skating ratings and, therefore, the ISU's revenue from TV contracts, is related to several issues. None of them involve skaters' looks.

Here are the problems that I believe have led to declining figure skating ratings:

1. Skaters skating the same programs over and over. Even dedicated skating fans like us can become weary of a program after seeing it 10 or 12 times. Imagine how casual viewers feel. I think this is a turnoff to a lot of people.

2. Too many falls in eligible programs. Casual viewers don't understand that falls are a natural part of skating. They think that if skaters train properly, they shouldn't fall (or at least not very often). As programs have gotten tougher technically, the number of falls has increased. Again, this is a turnoff to the casual viewer.

3. Not enough artistry in eligible programs. So many eligible skaters these days lack good style, form, presentation, and choreography. Casual viewers sense this, even if they don't understand the finer points of jumps and spins. Skating on TV ultimately has to be entertaining to some degree, or people won't watch. Right now there are way too many boring, uninspired, fall-ridden programs. Again, this is a big turnoff.

4. Disappointing professional skating. After Lillehammer, pro skating had an opportunity to become a huge sport. Certainly it was getting the air time. But the pro skaters failed to capitalize. Instead of putting out their best skating, most of the pros took the easy way out, went after the quick money, didn't prepare or train enough, and performed watered-down, cheesy, half-baked programs that were far below the best they could do. No wonder the public stopped watching pro skating. And because casual viewers are still confused about the difference between pro and eligible skating, the bad skating in pro events has hurt the eligible world too.

5. Judging controversies. Judging controversies may garner a lot of press and publicity, but they're ultimately damaging to the sport. The danger is that if casual viewers disagree with the judges' placements in an event, and commentators fan the flame of their discontent as Sandra and Scott did in SLC, then the casual viewer is likely to get turned off of skating completely and dismiss it as "not a sport" and therefore, not worth watching.

I think these are the main problems that have led to the decline in figure skating ratings. I don't think looks have much, if anything, to do with it. Granted, it never hurts for a skater to be good-looking. But it's no guarantee of success either athletically or financially. There are any number of very attractive skaters who have not become champions, and any number of very attractive champions who have not become media stars, for whatever reason.

**Bijoux** · 02-05-2004, 10:25 PM

I don't think you realize that by looks I mean total look, body, face, costumes, etc. My Tonya Harding example hit the nail on the head. Notice the princess like beauty in former times? Heine, Albright, Heiss, Fleming, Hamill, Kat, Kristy? Tara got gold but not Michelle's offers. Michelle was consider the person who should have won, and got all the contracts. Was her popularity higher only because she had a solid fan base? Michelle is considered by many Americans to be an exotic beauty, another Asian beauty like Kristy. Tara was still a baby then. now she is an actress, short, but very glamorous in comparisin to the 15 year old champshe was. Looks matter, clothes, hair, weight way to much in our Hollywood saturated media. That, ITA if you implied it.

I end there as the bloc voting became the most signicicant factor on who won for a decade. It was one thing I tried to sanswer MM on a previous post. I and others already listed all the factors you mention. I just wonder if a Solid Gold skater who happens to be star material in every way-Personality and commercial appeal that the public embraces will help revive figureskating here to 90's levels. It would be nice if that were an impetutus rather than whacking a top skater. Now THAT was very "unpleasant" for Nancy, for all of us who have had to watch over and over, and for a whole lot of people close to her and Tonya and that sad, desparate gang.

You should have been reading a few years ago to see one skater or the other or one poster or the other massacred for an opinion or choice they made. And all the things I said were rampmant on the many boards re controversial skaters like Tara, Michelle, Pasha G. Katia G when she got pregnant, and so on.

The reason 5000 children die a day from starvation is not lack of food. The root reason is apathy and indifference of people who have $$$ galore. But lets not talk about anything that could be considered unpleasant. My point to you Eyria is of all people you won't find a fan of not duscussing the truth, pleasant or not, here.
Gives me an idea for thread in another forum.

I am enviouos as you must live in a gilded world. "Everything is beautiful at the Ballet" is a very great song, MM. I used to sing it and much of Chorus Line before my throat got so froggy. I was usually Idol material only in the shower, though!

**Mathman** · 02-05-2004, 11:11 PM

Hey, Bijoux. About "everything is beautiful" and all the skater bashing that goes on on other boards, I think it's best to take all that with a shrug. Silly children who rush to the Internet to post things like, "Michelle is ugly, Sasha looks like a monkey, Peggy Fleming's face is all plastic surgery, Nancy Kerrigan has a horse face, Katarina Witt looks like a man in drag, Jenny Kirk is ... (OK, bad example -- everybody agrees Jenny is gorgeous, LOL) -- basically, didn't we leave that behind when we left middle school?

There is a board called "ihatemichellekwan." It has four members. (People who cruise Internet skating boards regularly can probably guess who they are, LOL.)

Worse, to me, are the so-called adults who want to insult skaters or other posters, but they want to do it in such a subtle and clever way that nobody can tell for sure whether they have been insulted or not. I get a kick out of that. It's a catch 22. If the meanies are too clever in their bashing, then nobody knows that he or she has been bashed and thus nobody realizes or appreciates just how clever the basher has been. So what's the point?

Back on topic (= "why can't figure skating bring in the big bucks"), Eyoka makes some interesting points, especially about so-called "professional" skating. I say "so-called" because nowadays the distinction is really between "Olympic eligible" skaters (those who are in the good graces of the ISU) and "ineligible" skaters (those who are not). "Olympic eligible" means skating in tours (COI) and shows (U.S. television specials) that pay a fee to the ISU and the USFSA to have their events so designated. "Ineligible" means skating in SOI, which does not pay Cinqunata a fee.

I think this points out one of skating's biggest problems: it is regarded -- indeed, it regards itself -- as an "Olympic sport." No "Olympic sport" makes much money or attracts very much fan interest. Sports like track and field, swimming, and skiing come across the public radar only once every four years and are quickly forgotten.

In contrast, "real" sports like football, basketball, hockey and (internationally) soccer, or even golf, tennis and NASCAR

, if they participate in the Olympics at all it is more of a recreational outing for the players. Their serious business is winning the Stanley Cup, the Super Bowl, Wimbledon, or the Masters. If you ask the athletes in any sport what they like about the Olympics, they invariably say something like, "it's an opportunity to represent my country." They rarely say, "it's an opportunity to test my skills against the best athletes in the sport." That would be the World Championship.

It is inevitible that any "Olympic sport" suffer from bloc judging and other scandals, and hence run the risk of not being taken seriously. This is because the Olympics is dominated by patriotism and national Chauvinism -- what country can bring home the most medals, by hook or crook. Nations boycott the Olympics for political reasons having nothing to do with sport. Judges who blantantly cheat at the Olympics are welcomed as heros when they return home.

This is not a criticism of the Olympics. Not at all. I think the Olympic games are a great spectacle, and I wave my flag as vigorously as anyone. But if we are talking about making money, we have to face the fact that sports that tie their fortunes to the Olympics, don't.

Having said all that, I don't know that there is anything we can do about it. The Olympics is the big show of figure skating. How to maintain fan interest in the intervening years, that's the $64 question.

Mathman

**Bijoux** · 02-06-2004, 01:52 AM

Very interesting and spoken with clarity. I guess the discussions veer in the long threads. Just to mention Nancy and Peggy as examples that prove 1 thing still is a factor. I did not like people slaying Nancy over her veneers. I read an article Paul Wylie was quoted in re: Nancy. She came home crying, (probably from the anesthesia to do all those teeth) asking Paul, her rinkmate why she had to do this, why was it necessary. Clearly her agents, her coaches or some one in her camp was telling her she needed to look perfect, she needed the smile of a beauty queen. She herself did not come up with the idea. They pushed her, she was young and obeyed.

Peggy has had her nose done and lifts to stay young looking. She has no choice any more than Barbara Walters does. The men in FS can be unnatractive (but never overweight) but the ladies are judged on beauty. It is, as I said in my first post, a man's world. Could Peggy ever get away with Dick's wrinkles?

If she had called teenage boys "delicious little things" as we all remember his comment, she'd be off the air, and we would all suspect 'off her rocker'. There is no other sport where appearance from head to toe counts so much.

I have been reading and hearing how offended people are by the halftime football show, not just Janet, the whole thing. Maybe parents will now turn off football to watch the "clean" sport of skating! Well I can hope can't I? LOL

I think most people hate what I do, unfair judging. 6.0 or Cop, there have been some careers ruined and careers made. I have never seen the unbiased judging I want to see in FS and I never will because of the subjectivity of "artistry."

We have picked up a lot of viewers in this thread, prob. 'cause of the blue shocked emoticon someone put next to it in The Edge listing. I recently saw a post where a few people questioned the mens' final outcome of 4Cs. There was merit to the inquiry, yet another member saw that as bashing as she was very happy with the result. I hope GS doesn't get stultified and people don't express their real feelings. No matter what you think, say or do, you are going to have people disagree. My favorite skater was called "part of the us stockpile." I decided not to say anything. I think Jenny can outskate anyone given the right music, but I'm too ? dare i say mature? maybe just plain old to pick on anyone's opinion. A few years ago all the boards were battlefields. But I only look at three general ones, and I don't see bashing, I see disagreements and debate. If we all see the same way--there is nothing to discuss. Plus people often give short posts. As for not snapping back at you, your welcome! Why should I? I just have to remember that some fans are gaga over some skaters!

Love,
ain't it grand? (and yes I'm implying you are head over heels in love with Michelle, LOL. Have you sent out your St. Val's gift yet?

)

**Mathman** · 02-06-2004, 10:41 AM

No, but I just sent a CD to my other girlfriend, Yuka Sato, and her husband. The sound track to "Love Actually." It has some really great songs for pairs skating, starting with Norah Jones' "Turn Me On."

Mathman

**Joesitz** · 02-06-2004, 03:49 PM

good previous post, Mathman. I agree even to the extent that we glorify the Olympics as the end-all in any particular sport. It really is no more than the best skate that night; the fastest downhill that day, that hockey team that breaks the tie just before the game ends. I don't believe any of those wins and many others can be called "The Best". They are the best of that particular competitor or team at a given time in a given place. I've often thought, if the entire sport were done the next day/night, would the results be the same? Just my thoughts.

Now for the topic again - All the sports Mathman mentioned and others are sports that the layman often participates in. Every high school has a variety of sports activities, e.g., swimmers, gymansts, track and field, tennis, teams sports. How many have figure skating? Does it exist in high school? All of these studentswill have a soft spot in there hearts for when they were activfely in a particular sport and they will carry that interest when they are adults.

In the case of Tennis and Golf, (maybe skiing, equestian), adults continue that sport so it is of interst for them to watch Andy Roddick and Tiger. Figure Skating has an 'Adult branch" but is it as big as Tennis and Golf?

I believe if Figue Skating cecame available to the students, the sport would grow increasingly popular, and the demand to see the best in figure skating would go beyond the Olympics.

Joe