11-19-2013, 09:36 AM
I/K had the same issues with only one week to make any adjustments and their improvement was noticeable to both the judges and fans alike. P/B will need to work just as hard if not smarter.
11-19-2013, 09:50 AM
I was watching the same one you were in fact you made my point. However, I was incorrect in stating that their first event was NHK; it was Cup of China. Thanks.
Originally Posted by Matt K
11-19-2013, 09:53 AM
Agreed. I think that P/B will improve; as they did at TEB so the speed will come along with the precision.
Originally Posted by bramweld
11-19-2013, 09:55 AM
But they weren't judged harshly at all in the other items at CoC. Their base value in the FD was actually higher at CoC than at TEB by a full point (and it was the FD at TEB that cost them the silver medal, NOT the SD).
Originally Posted by dcnative
11-19-2013, 10:12 AM
Well, D/W noticeably lose speed on their second set of twizzles and they usually get +2. I don't see where I/K were distant in the first set.
Originally Posted by FSGMT
I/K are scoring about the same or higher in twizzles than D/W. I'd say that's about right.
As for P/B's, theirs are fairly slow. I wouldn't give it more than a +1, at the very most, +2 (if without unison problems).
11-19-2013, 10:14 AM
Agreed all around. The race for bronze is just so very interesting this year. All, hopefully B/S will surprise us nicely this weekend, have great vehicles for themselves. It will depend on the performance on the day. For the first time in a long time I'm excited for ice dance
11-19-2013, 11:32 AM
What improvement? In free dance Lena stumbled in second step sequence (she didn't at NHK), Nikita was shacky in turns in first step sequence (he didn't at NHK). Their spin in free dance - I guess that position od Lena's free leg in last part of spin must be around 180 degrees to take it as another difficulty - even without slow motion you can see that in reality it is about 150 degrees (executed at NHK as well as at TEB). At NHK they got level 2 for the spin, here with the same 150 degrees they got level 4. Why? In my opinion their speed was higher in NHK.
Originally Posted by bramweld
What suprises me more than work of technical panel is that they lack the rhythm as well. You can see watching legs work that in SD in non-finnstep parts they are missing the rhythm and timimg to music from time to time. It is more obvious in free skate in waltz part with circular step sequence. Watching Lena's legs, she is almost constantly late to music not hitting the right time to the rhytme and for unknown reason for me - Nikita catches the rhythm (which is great) but one tone late - as I known waltz is about counting one-two-three, one-two-three and he again and again starts new step in time of ,,two". The reason why is Lena out of rhythm and Nikita ,,just" one tone late is that the distance between those two is quite large - in close position they would be forced to do all as one person. Open positions doesn't requires even rhythm unison that.
For me dance teams are required to make all moves to the music and keep the rhythm. In solo skating while jumping you need to concentrate and everybody takes care about the jump not the rhythm - I fully understand. But in dance? What else should dance couple concentrate for to feel disconect from music rhythm?
11-19-2013, 12:57 PM
I didn't agree with Davis/White judging at the Olympics. But now we have 2013/14 season.
Originally Posted by bramweld
We have many couples who sacrificed so many things and did so much work during last 4 years and especially this summer. Today I see Virtue, Davis, Weaver, Bobrova, Pechalat, even some other Russians, maybe even Zhiganshina and Hubell (with all partners of course) who has more difficult programs than Ilinykh.
More difficult choreography - more difficult to keep the speed and to skate it clean. More easy to make a mistake.
I think if you try to push yourself to more difficult things, to more difficult dance, to something what is new and unknown for you, what you never done before - also in term of presentation...I admire this. And I am fully for appreciating this more then ,,safe" programs.
I am not an extra fan of Weaver/Poje, but this year they came with dance like never before in their career. Not just perfect choreo which shows the character of music on 100 percent (thanks Krylova/Camerlengo) but I also appreciate that this kind of dance is not close to their personality - I find Kaethlyn more cheerful (I see no passion or temperament in her natural character) and Andrew looks to be quite calm person (far from spanish dancers). But they took music, worked hard, and the result is great. Still they are not as great like Angelica Krylova or Pascale Camerlengo would be dancing on it, but it is the dance which reflects the music. Wow.
As to I/K...they took Swan Lake. In August they described the story of Rothbart and Black Swan - Odylie, at the end Odylie dies, Lena said - it is not a ballet because it is hard to do ballet on ice, but in the same time talked about hours and hours standing in front of the mirror and trying postures and hand positions (ballet hand positions or just positions in cross-overs??), plus Lena is wishing to be black Swan with light and nice soul. Later we heard it is not Swan Lake story or Black Swan movie story. In October young ballet students were invited to practises to help (Nikita said in interview they helped with short dance???? ).
In last two weeks .....Morozov said again that it is not Swan Lake or Black Swan story (but admits that he invites ballerina to help Lena and Nikita to get better into dance). Lena promises to bring some more ballet tricks into dance. In the same time she says that story is not about heroes - it is about love and passion, about two strong personalities who met - man and woman (in this moment I don't understand swan costume and swan hand moves two times during dance, swan position at the end of dance) as well as I don't catch why woman who thinks she is swan dies after falling in love with Nikita....
After just 3 months they created so many stories for free dance - one story kills the previous one that I stopped looking for story and concentrate what I see in their gestures on the ice only. Yes I see that Nikita shows he is passionately in love with Swan-Woman, and Lena is a sexy cat who does swan movements and shows pain and suffering and Divas postures during dance, at the end she dies. I switch Swan Lake and put Ave Maria in - I see Nikita's love to angel Lena, who shows pain and suffering and Divas postures. I put Ghost in - I see Nikita's love to Lena and Lena's pain and suffering from loosing Nikita and some joyfull/Divas postures before his death. I put Latina and Polka short dances - I see Nikita's love and longing to hold Lena in his arms and Lena's Diva postures. Latina/Polka's dance/Ghost/Ave Maria/Swan Lake/Finnstep short dance - I just still see one side of Nikita and one side of Lena, no trying to change characters. Even Nikita's final gesture in last 3 free dances is always the same - one hand in direction to Lena because he loves her and wants her. I really don't know if Morozov or Lena and Nikita wants to say us that Latin/movie soundtrack/classical music/Polka is still about the same???
Lena and Nikita are very nice to watch, no doubt but personally I more admire people who come with new things, who improves (please no notices about new lifts - we are all waiting for those lifts for 3 years in row, when all top and non-top teams were already able to do such elements in 2010/11 even in better execution they Nikita is doing now).
can see that the couple is talented and maybe more talented than Weaver/Bobrova/Davis etc. But they all had 4 years to go to perfection - Lena and Nikita improved but other teams improved more. Other teams try to change themself in different dances, to change personalities they are portrayting...and some of them are very succesful in it.
Meryl - Tango/Waltz/Notre Dame/Sheherezade, Tessa - Latin dance/Audrey/Carmen/classical music, Natalie - Chaplin/Oriental dance/modern dance/Little Prince, Weaver - Moulin Rouge/Lara Fabian/Statue story/Spanish music, Bobrova - White Nights/Valpurgia's Night/Psycho story (my personal title)/Birds story, Zhiganshina - Dream of Love in modern arrangement/Romeo and Juliet/Zombie/High-Society story and many other examples. Not all of them I liked but I was able to notice that skaters were pushing themself to different stories and characters - to different presentation. Lena and Nikita are only top team who are still the same. This characters suites them well I see, but after long 3 years I would like to see something else - not every music is about love/longing/Diva's postures. I see Morozov is trying to change the music cuts he uses but the result is still the same - Nikita longing for and in love with Lena, Lena - Diva who plays suffering - it starts to be boring and it puts a question if such a great dancer like Nikita and Lena are supposed to be really can't change themselfs with the music (like other ,,not so talented" teams can do).
Somebody noticed that dance doesn't need a story line (trying to protect I/K from criticism about no story in FD). I agree in moment when we are talking about ballroom dance - tango, latin dances, rumba, waltz - such dances doesn't need another explanation and story - like in ballroom dancing competitions. But if you take music which is not ballroom and don't have story - it is suddenly about showing element by element only...which I regret to call ice dancing at all.
Sorry for loooong answer, he is able to read it all worth admiration too.
11-19-2013, 04:39 PM
I am sure that if someone has the motivation to write huge posts about the weaknesses of a couple, it means only one thing: this pair has become too strong and ready to change the balance in the dances.
Especially if these posts consists:
exaggeration ("almost 10 seconds of standing on one foot and watching at each other");
forgery ("position od Lena's free leg in last part of spin must be around 180 degrees to take it as another difficulty" - in the technical rules is written "almost" and "about" 180) ;
NLP techniques ("I more admire people who come with new things, who improves (please no notices about new lifts ...)"
and so on.
Yeah, I can agree with many, that criticism versed in figure skating fan. But the picture in any case, one-sided and not entirely objective.
I & K did a great job in the off-season and the result in this of it not only became the new lifts (and no lifts better and more difficult in 2010/11). They become greater endurance, they are more stable in the elements, Lena keeps better posture and lines, they have much better programs, costumes and exterior. They received a long standing ovation from the neutral audience on the first competition of the new season. By the way, the first in their career. It's not impressive progress?
PS. sorry about my language
11-19-2013, 04:58 PM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Jagger, Welcome to Golden Skate! Post long & often!
11-19-2013, 05:30 PM
11-20-2013, 12:51 AM
Sorry to make you sad about my opinions.
Originally Posted by Jagger
I am not unti-fan of Lena and Nikita, I liked their skating in 2009/10 and 2010/11, I found them one of the most promising couple in next decade. Maybe that is the problem, I was wathing them every next year and looking for what I saw in Junior Worlds – something special, something what makes from good couple one of the best in world.
I don’t like new judging system, it can be as well unobjective as old one. But once it is on we should respect it. And once it is on skaters should respect it. I guess – if you do what is required you get levels, yes, cool. If you don’t you loose levels. In Lena and Nikita’s case – if you don’t do what is required you get levels. Doesn’t it sound logical?
How about other couples? You obviously like this couple more than I do, I obviously like skaters who love challanges, who wants to bring great dance too not only elements and cross-overs.
Am I wrong about those 180 and stumbling? Try to imagine you are not fighting with me, but instead standing in front of Weaver, Virtue, Bobrova, Chock, Davis, Pechalat and repeat what you wrote….that it is OK not to make requirments and get high levels. And say those girls that you know that their requirements were there and perfectly, but Lena and Nikita gets as high levels as they get because…..because you like them. Or don’t like others? I don’t see a sense in it.
I think I/K are promising couple, but in these days other couples better, more in rhythm, more in dance, skating more difficult programs. About difficulty of program – dance is an art, is it a sport also (especially with those lifts), in sport it was always about being better, higher, stronger. And you want to persuade the world that doing program with simple choreography is great more than bringing something new?
I remember Tessa – so young, every year new style, new extrairdinary choreo, Meryl tried it as well, I remember Domnina – every year until Shabalin’s injury they were better and better, Khokhlova etc.
Lena and Nikita are the only top couple who are still skating more simple programs then others, still the some love/Diva stories while others can do changements. Why should I vote for this?
If you don’t like my words I don’t push, I am not like ,,I like/I don’t like“. If I don’t like I said why. Who wrote about speed and great looking couple. I agreed (but added that speed is also because of simple choreo). If I am really wrong I am sorry. But first you should put a words what I said wrongly, why my opinions are incorrect. You punished me for what I said, but I didn’t notice that you would be able to say that I was wrong in element execution, rhythm, the same story in each dance.
Sorry again long, again with poor English. One of things what I like even love on figure skating is dance and music, maybe you should more understand long posts for this couple…
I agree to write about beauty of the couple, about speed, about ,,it“ factor, but please if you write more (about dancing, timing, …) I can’t agree and write.
P.S. You don’t want to tell me that exterior in Lena and Nikita’s case is so important, if you do, does it mean that other couples don’t have this that you notice it like one of great things for these two??????
11-20-2013, 12:54 AM
Do you want to tell that all others couples went to Hawaii during off season and didn't work hard as Lena and Nikita? If they did more work than others and are more prepared, why they got low levels at NHK, and stumbles at TEB, while other couples can skate their programs with levels and without mistakes?
Originally Posted by Jagger
And welcome here too Jagger.
11-20-2013, 03:42 AM
I can't believe peoples are thinking P/B (Circus 2.0) and V/M (Mahler 2.0) trying new things, challenging themselfs.
Virtue/Mor's weakness is lifts and their free dance which really don't have WOW factor. They lost the TES, Weaver/Poje at the Skate Canada and Ilınykh/Katsalapov in TEB.
Pechalat/Bourzat's weakness is skating skills, twizzles and spins. Also skating slower than other teams.
Ilınykh /Katsalapov's weakness is dance holds and getting levels.
11-20-2013, 08:35 PM
V/M- their program is growing on me. Really like the music.
I/K -startled by the huge jump in scores in just a week! Wow. Will be curious to see how they do in future competitions.