Poised to break through--but didn't | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Poised to break through--but didn't

Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Gedevanishvili definitely. The thing about someone like her is that as she was poised for greatness, she also carried her country's reputation on her back. Georgia didn't really have anyone else to count on to make it into the world spotlight. So it's an additional sadness when a skater such as Elene doesn't quite make it.

The more we discuss this topic, the less likely I am to want to include Sasha on it. Look at her achievements compared to those of the people mentioned here. She has medals all over the place, just not a lot of golds. Considering that Michelle was there the whole time Sasha was skating, that's pretty impressive. Yes, she had her shortcomings, but as London_calling says, she did make "the most of herself and achieved a lot more than most skaters often described as inconsistent."
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
I don't think Sasha deserves to be in here, she had success, and wasn't as much of a disappointment as some on here. I liked Sasha, but watching her crack under pressure more often than not was frustrating but even when she faltered she still fought to keep it together, I think she deserves kudos in Torino for missing the first two jumps then pulling it together and still delivering a respectable performance, I do think she deserved the silver in Torino, no one was perfect that night and the strength of the other elements and five clean triples allowed her to stay (Irina only landed four). I agree that there's a certain something the "Greats" have that Sasha didn't-- the ability to focus and deliver. Arakawa was there to win and skated to win, same with Sarah Hughes, and Tara Lipinski and most of the time Michelle Kwan. I think sometimes Sasha skated not to lose, but even with mistakes, I still enjoyed her skating. With Emanuel Sandhu, more often than not I'd get totally frustrated, at 2007 Worlds I was just embarrassed for him.

Gedevanishvili definitely. The thing about someone like her is that as she was poised for greatness, she also carried her country's reputation on her back. Georgia didn't really have anyone else to count on to make it into the world spotlight. So it's an additional sadness when a skater such as Elene doesn't quite make it.

Definitely true. In Japan or Canada or other strong countries, one skater doesn't carry the weight of their nation. Plus in a country like Georgia, likely facilities and access to coaching are an issue. Yu-Na faced the pressure of a nation as well but Korea is pretty developed and could afford to hire coaching and finance her career.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
I don't think Sasha deserves to be in here, she had success, and wasn't as much of a disappointment as some on here. I liked Sasha, but watching her crack under pressure more often than not was frustrating but even when she faltered she still fought to keep it together, I think she deserves kudos in Torino for missing the first two jumps then pulling it together and still delivering a respectable performance, I do think she deserved the silver in Torino, no one was perfect that night and the strength of the other elements and five clean triples allowed her to stay (Irina only landed four). I agree that there's a certain something the "Greats" have that Sasha didn't-- the ability to focus and deliver. Arakawa was there to win and skated to win, same with Sarah Hughes, and Tara Lipinski and most of the time Michelle Kwan. I think sometimes Sasha skated not to lose, but even with mistakes, I still enjoyed her skating. With Emanuel Sandhu, more often than not I'd get totally frustrated, at 2007 Worlds I was just embarrassed for him..

I think Sasha did just as was expected. Of course because she was so exquisite many thought she'd step up. But her basic skating left much to be desired. It was always so clear at a live competition. She wasn't into the ice, generating power as much as the others. Her edging was not the best, which I think harmed her jumps. I don't think it was Sasha not skating to win, in fact several times she looked like she was about to burst she was channeling so much desire to win. Her basic skating couldn't hold her up.

Her Olympic R/J was wonderful, and I think I love it more because she missed the two opening jumps, had to have thought "Oh well Olympic dream is over" and went out and nailed the rest.

Gedevanishvili looked poised in 2006, but she then started growing. Her body had completely changed. It was a completely different skater.

Nikodinov I don't think any had her poised to become a champion. She had no head for competition, and that was evident all the way back to Novice. She was a gorgeous skater, very secure, graceful, elegant, had all the jumps, but she always blew up with only a few exceptions.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
I think Sasha did just as was expected. Of course because she was so exquisite many thought she'd step up. But her basic skating left much to be desired. It was always so clear at a live competition. She wasn't into the ice, generating power as much as the others. Her edging was not the best, which I think harmed her jumps. I don't think it was Sasha not skating to win, in fact several times she looked like she was about to burst she was channeling so much desire to win. Her basic skating couldn't hold her up.

Her Olympic R/J was wonderful, and I think I love it more because she missed the two opening jumps, had to have thought "Oh well Olympic dream is over" and went out and nailed the rest.

.

Good observations, she was so flexible and artistic, I think it got overlooked, the commentators, especially the Americans fawned over her and ignored her flaws. When you look at many of the Japanese skaters, they have effortless speed and power and so have bigger jumps. Which is why I take issue when Sasha's most vocal fans try to argue that Sasha's artistry alone should win over those who skated better. Figure skating is a sport, and you don't win by falling. I agree that her performance in 2006 Olympics was beautiful, she likely did think "Gold is gone now it's a fight for a medal, so pull it together"> It's ironic because at the Worlds she did her usual, started off well then lost focus, almost like she started skating not to lose. I wonder if she had an artistic temperament, that can be a problem too.

Gedevanishvili looked poised in 2006, but she then started growing. Her body had completely changed. It was a completely different skater.

Yeah, the puberty monster ate her up, which is why we need to be careful at hyping up young girls before they mature. Makes me wonder about the Russian teenage phenoms out there, if they can maintain what they have and improve on it, they'll be great, providing the puberty monster doesn't derail them.

Yeah, Angela just couldn't hold it together, unfortunately.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I don't think Sasha deserves to be in here, she had success, and wasn't as much of a disappointment as some on here. I liked Sasha, but watching her crack under pressure more often than not was frustrating but even when she faltered she still fought to keep it together, I think she deserves kudos in Torino for missing the first two jumps then pulling it together and still delivering a respectable performance, I do think she deserved the silver in Torino, no one was perfect that night and the strength of the other elements and five clean triples allowed her to stay (Irina only landed four). I agree that there's a certain something the "Greats" have that Sasha didn't-- the ability to focus and deliver. Arakawa was there to win and skated to win, same with Sarah Hughes, and Tara Lipinski and most of the time Michelle Kwan.

LOL I agree with you on Sasha but lets not go overboard on Shizuka. Most of her career was crash and burn, she was one of the most inconsistent champion skaters ever. Sasha was in fact far more consistent than her. Shizuka did well to put it all together to win a major event twice (well really once once, while winning in Turin despite not skating all that well and landing only the same # of triples as the silver medalist), but she was not some stellar competitor.

Shizuka's career from the time she made her first Olympic team:

1998 Olympics- 13th
1998 Worlds- out of top 10
1999 Worlds- did not qualify
2000 Worlds- did not qualify
2001 Worlds- did not qualify
2002 Olympics- did not qualify
2002 Worlds- did not qualify
2003 Worlds- 8th
2004 Worlds- 1st
2005 Worlds- 9th
2006 Olympics- 1st

1999 Grand Prix final- did not qualify
2000 Grand Prix final- did not qualify
2001 Grand Prix final- did not qualify
2002 Grand Prix final- did not qualify
2003 Grand Prix final- did not qualify, but got in as second alternate, and finished 4th
2004 Grand Prix final- 3rd
2005 Grand Prix final- 2nd
2006 Grand Prix final- did not qualify
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Sasha had great figure skating talent, but I think there were some discipline type of issues with her. I remember a coach got mad at her once for staying up all night baking several different types of cookies. Did she not train as hard as she should have? I don't know, but it was hinted at a couple of times. She also missed a year with a broken vertebrae, IIRC, and my mother thought she wasn't quite the same after that.

Still, I wouldn't include her on the list. She was never the #1 American--Michelle was--or the #1 expected to medal at Worlds (if not Michelle, then Irina). She was expected to come in 2nd at Torino, with Irina poised to complete the Russian sweep.

She had the door wide open, with Irina skating poorly, and she didn't take advantage of it, but in the end she did what she had to, winning probably America's last ladies figure skating medal for at least 12 years.

Does anyone else think that Gracie is about to wind up on this list? I don't trust her at all. She should have made the GPF, if she's all that great. It's still too soon to tell, but I can see her flaming out along with Mirai and Caroline.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Does anyone else think that Gracie is about to wind up on this list? I don't trust her at all. She should have made the GPF, if she's all that great. It's still too soon to tell, but I can see her flaming out along with Mirai and Caroline.

Gracie just started her career, I think she deserves a chance. Sheesh. Mirai yes has been around and had Caroline but it's not fair to doubt a skater who just started.

Vanessa Gusmeroli won bronze at 1997 Worlds and then struggled with consistency, falling to 16th in 1998, then climbing back up to 5th and 4th in 1999 and 2000, then down to 9th in 2001. Admittedly, her bronze came from in a year when the top three were all struggling, Michelle and Irina were adjusting to puberty and body changes, and Lu Chen was injured and also having problemse with the Skating Federation in China.

Mira Leung looked to be the poster girl for the Vancouver Olympics, then fall off the map after 2008. By 2009 Canadians, Cynthia Phaneuf had regained her jumps and had replaced Mira. Interesting that Mira and Cynthia had what the other lacked: Mira had the competitive edge and consistency, and Cynthia had the skating skills and artistry. With Mira, I think her overall skating let her down and in 2008-09 she wasn't as consistent any more and when her consistency was gone, so was her spot on the National Team
 

bump

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 15, 2013
Gracie Gold...because she's been overhyped, it SEEMS like she's arrived. But she really hasn't, and it seems unlikely that she'll ever really be consistent enough to be a true champion. Sigh.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Gracie Gold...because she's been overhyped, it SEEMS like she's arrived. But she really hasn't, and it seems unlikely that she'll ever really be consistent enough to be a true champion. Sigh.

Gracie is halfway through her second season as a Senior skater and she's already done? I admit she can be a headcase but she still has a lot of upside when she does skate well as she did in her SP at SC when she scored 69 points. Let's see what Frank can do for her.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Gracie is halfway through her second season as a Senior skater and she's already done? I admit she can be a headcase but she still has a lot of upside when she does skate well as she did in her SP at SC when she scored 69 points. Let's see what Frank can do for her.

Agreed! Seriously, let's not declare a skater a disappointment when they just started! It often takes time and experience to develop consistency. Come on! Same with Liza K, she's having a rough year due to puberty but let's not right her off so soon. Not everyone can go out there right from the start and nail down the good, even Sarah Hughes and Sasha Cohen had bad outings early in their career.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I think Gracie will have good results in the future. Aside from Yuna and Michelle, there haven't been any skaters in the last 20 years who have maintained a level of excellence over a long period. It is very typical for top skaters to have dips in their form and it is understandable with all the changes Gracie has gone through that she needs to get settled again before she can perform her best.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
I think Gracie will have good results in the future. Aside from Yuna and Michelle, there haven't been any skaters in the last 20 years who have maintained a level of excellence over a long period. It is very typical for top skaters to have dips in their form and it is understandable with all the changes Gracie has gone through that she needs to get settled again before she can perform her best.

Exactly! And also, Yu-Na, early in her career would fold under pressure if she lead in after the short, and Michelle had that rough year in 1996-97, when she lost all her main titles to Tara Lipinski. Look at Irina Slutskaya, she was the world silver medallist in 1998, and then didn't make the world team and was written off in 1998-99, but came back in 1999-00 better than ever. It's not fair to say someone will never rise up just because they aren't delivering all the time, it's being human. Gracie hasn't been around that long.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Yeah, but compare Gracie to these Russian young ladies. They come right out of juniors and get golds and silvers on the Grand Prix circuit and then make the GPF. You really think she'll be able to beat them in the future?

No, I'm seeing her as someone like Ashley Wagner or Alissa Czisny, who maybe comes in 4th or 5th in their 20s. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm not impressed by her consistency, and don't see anything that unique about her artistry.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Let's bring this back to what the topic is and not "Being negative about a skater who hasn't been around long enough to estabilsh herself"

Dube and Davison won bronze in 2008, but after that struggled to maintain that level consistently after that.

Sargeant and Wirtz were medal contenders in 1999, but nerves and pressure got the best of them and they finished sixth.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
I thought Angela Nikodinov was breaking through, then her mother died in that car accident. Also Jenny Kirk was wonderful. Losing her mom to cancer and her eating disorder were very tough. It seems most fail, a few become stars that last a few years. It seems those who stay in forever have the money to do so these days. If you don't hit and make some meoney, it is crazy to keep trying. Education is very important to most of these kids today. As it should be. Too bad for us in US, we lose many if they do not break through quickly.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Angela was never able to hold it together, she'd make a mistake and fall apart :(. Poor Jenny, she did have promise but she lost her motivation. So many US women in that time simply were trapped in a very deep field.

There was also Hanae Yokoya, a Japanese skater during the 90s, before Japan became the force in single skating it is today. She was tenth in the world twice, then fell to twenty third (I think she was injured) then disappeared.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Beatrisa Liang was poised to become a contender, but she lost her consistency. I also felt she was never judged well, considering her programs were always packed and musical.
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Yeah, but compare Gracie to these Russian young ladies. They come right out of juniors and get golds and silvers on the Grand Prix circuit and then make the GPF. You really think she'll be able to beat them in the future?

No, I'm seeing her as someone like Ashley Wagner or Alissa Czisny, who maybe comes in 4th or 5th in their 20s. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm not impressed by her consistency, and don't see anything that unique about her artistry.

Most of these Russian girls still have the bodies of little girls and haven't gone through puberty yet or aren't done. Elena probably weighs 75 lbs at most. Let's see where these girls are in another 2-3 years when they grow about 4 inches and they can't rotate those tiny jumps anymore. The sport is littered with prepubescent girls who were done 2 years later.
 

coppertop1

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Most of these Russian girls still have the bodies of little girls and haven't gone through puberty yet or aren't done. Elena probably weighs 75 lbs at most. Let's see where these girls are in another 2-3 years when they grow about 4 inches and they can't rotate those tiny jumps anymore. The sport is littered with prepubescent girls who were done 2 years later.

My thoughts, too. Elena and Julia may not be as consistent when they grew. It sounds like people who are dissing Gracie want a big star and want it NOW. That's a lot of pressure. This is about skaters who never broke through, not about impatience with new skaters.

Bebe Liang is yet another skater caught up in a deep field of American ladies.

Sarah Meier showed great potential for Switzerland and was a good jumper, but strulgged with consistency and injuries over the course of career.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I think a lot of the young American skaters are undone by the hype. I don't think any skater is helped by the media declaring the next great thing before they've won anything, and in some cases, before they've even entered a senior competition. I don't think Sasha was helped in the slightest by having Dick Button say "Sasha has it all" on national TV when anyone who knows the slightest bit about skating could see that her basic skating was weak and that she was skating on the flat of her blades much of the time. I don't think Gracie Gold is helped by articles with the heading "The Gold Standard" either.

Naomi Nari Nam's mother was quite blunt in her criticism of the US media after the Sports Illustrated cover story with the tag line "She's got next!". Reporters followed her at every event the following season and it completely unnerved her. Her mother said she wished that article had never appeared. Naomi was dealing with puberty and injuries the following year and the hype and expectations destroyed her confidence.

Sasha was hounded at Jr. Worlds by reporters trailing her everywhere, expecting her to pick up a medal and move on the Sr. Worlds. She blew up and finished well off the podium. I friend who was there said she felt sorry for the kid.

Canada has done a similar thing with their young men. Expectations for young Canadian Men are just as high as they are for young American Women. Rod Black called several young men "The Next One", and none of them were. Jason Denomme was "The Next One", as was Emanuel Sandhu and Fedor Andreev, among others. It happened so many times that we started calling it "The Curse of 'The Next One'" because after being named The Next One, these skaters' careers fizzled. I remember he almost referred to Jeff Buttle as The Next One, and just before the words came out of his mouth, he paused, and said something else, like Canada's best hope at Worlds.

Let the kids grow up and accomplish something, and then celebrate it. I'd rather talk about what they've accomplished, rather than what they might do.
 
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