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Thread: Have outfits simply gone over the top?

  1. #91
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Peggy Fleming is no less an Olympic icon because she won in a simple dress her mother made.
    I hope I did not suggest that I think otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by TontoK View Post
    Likewise, I prefer non-fussy attire for men.
    Can you say more about what you mean by "non-fussy"?

  2. #92
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Pepe u r asking mods to censor even more. It has been said many a time here Hanyu is very soft looking. He is feminine in face and build. We can have a separate discussion on that. People have said Agnes seemed masculine. No one jumped up. But to attack me or imply I agree with or have influenced Russia's anti gay laws is ridiculous and harmful to me.

    It was at first a light thread. naturally, a gay male poster is going to find Hanyu tame, comp. to Fire Island looks, Key West, so on so on. That's in your LGBT culture, clubs, parades etc and what has become acceptable is miles away fro comp. figure skating, or maybe should be. Iy is prickly to discuss but I want to be clear that USA FS iss on life support. IJS needs to make changes. The costumes are fun to laugh at but I am disturbed at the negligees on young girls. The majority were in consensus re this trend for girls getting worse. I like Hanyu-But I think men there are being allowed to go too far.

    But answer this, is it an Olympic sport with requirements or performance art. This has nothing to do with being gay. But most will now avoid thread after Toni "didn't get it." Mod wet blanket effect, lol. Just kidding Toni. I'd rather go back to simple dresse sthan have to see someone's butt crack as Tolusai put it,. Obscene and shame on the ISU. I think they have failed their athletes as people. I'm done with the attack .

    Perhaps someone will start a serious discussion about why costumes may be detracting at this point.

    I know it is not new. Look at Doro in 1976. Then look at costumes in 80's. The decline, changes, abberrations began in that decade.

    The cultural icons were Madonna and Michael Jackson. Need I say more? Everyone skated to their music/emulated their looks.

    BUT, should FS have allowed such craziness? I think Singles, pairs need reigning in. Ice dance is about acting, portraying a character, or a theme of the classical ballroom. They need more leeway to express. I hope this clarifies-I won't address anyone who thinks I'm like Putin because I thinh THE SPORT needs limits. It is not a burlesque nor a drag type show.

    Many felt Johnny pushed way to far while skating. I agree. Apparently IMG, Smuckers Hamilton all agreed. Sport? the direction is reform or retro. Something else? Not sport, then I suppose anything goes.

    Why is the sport dead? Identity issue/ Sport? Art? Both? Performance art/glamour pageant?

    North Americans are definitely in a diff place re costumes than Russia/Europe. Partly cultural for me, but -what is appropriate comp. skating attire? I think we all know when we see it. So many fashionista shows on tv-very little werable cloythes. Shock value and sexy attire do get people's attention. Smutty culture-TV saturated very sadly.

  3. #93
    I got your program components right here. Pepe Nero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Pepe u r asking mods to censor even more. It has been said many a time here Hanyu is very soft looking. He is feminine in face and build. We can have a separate discussion on that. People have said Agnes seemed masculine. No one jumped up. But to attack me or imply I agree with or have influenced Russia's anti gay laws is ridiculous and harmful to me.

    It was at first a light thread. naturally, a gay male poster is going to find Hanyu tame, comp. to Fire Island looks, Key West, so on so on. That's in your LGBT culture, clubs, parades etc and what has become acceptable is miles away fro comp. figure skating, or maybe should be. Iy is prickly to discuss but I want to be clear that USA FS iss on life support. IJS needs to make changes. The costumes are fun to laugh at but I am disturbed at the negligees on young girls. The majority were in consensus re this trend for girls getting worse. I like Hanyu-But I think men there are being allowed to go too far.

    But answer this, is it an Olympic sport with requirements or performance art. This has nothing to do with being gay. But most will now avoid thread after Toni "didn't get it." Mod wet blanket effect, lol. Just kidding Toni. I'd rather go back to simple dresse sthan have to see someone's butt crack as Tolusai put it,. Obscene and shame on the ISU. I think they have failed their athletes as people. I'm done with the attack poryion

    Perhaps someone will start a serious discussion about why costumes may be detracting at this point.

    I know it is not new. Look at Doro in 1976. Then look at costumes in 80's. The decline, changes, abberrations began in that decade.

    The cultural icons were Madonna and Michael Jackson. Need I say more? Everyone skated to their music/emulated their looks.

    BUT, should FS have allowed such craziness? I think Singles, pairs need reigning in. Ice dance is about acting, portraying a character, or a theme of the classical ballroom. They need more leeway to express. I hope this clarifies-I won't address anyone who thinks I'm like Putin because I thinh THE SPORT needs limits. It is not a burlesque nor a drag type show.

    May felt Johnny pushed way to far while skating. I agree. Apparently IMG, Smuckerss Hamilton all agreed. Sport? the direction is reform or retro. Something else? Not sport, then I suppose anything goes.

    Why is the sport dead? Identity issue/ Sport? Art? Both? Performance art/glamour pageant?

    North Americans are definitely in a diff place re costumes than Russia/Europe. Partly cultural for me, buso -what is appropriate comp. skating attire? I think we all know when we see it. So many fashionista shows on tv-very little werable cloythes. Shock value and sexy attire do get people's attention. Smutty culture-TV saturated very sadly,
    Yes, it might be because of Madonna and Michael Jackson.

  4. #94
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Well, Madonna sent a message anything goes, wear less, shock, get attention-esp when u have no real talent. Poor Michael said he wanted to look like Diana Ross, his idol-the facial surgeries were extensive, changing his look from normal, handsome masculine to rather gender anonymous. He was ridiculed greatly. There followed 30 years of copycats and few originals. These are artists tho, and the artistic side of FS embraces the now in gala skates. I think the pendulum will swing back to very simple in at least one of the comp. programs. I said before a program of required elements with no costume, simple unitard would be great. No hiding behind choreo for weakness cover, nor costumes that hide line. I even suggested no music. It could replace figures and SP.

    The long program would be as it has been, will be the choreo, music costume etc. If ISU doesn't get a strategy soon, there will be no sport in usa. Ithink success is as a sport, and projecting it as tough sport. The girls are out there for now, maybe due to pageant aspect at first

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Jill Trenary also used illusion fabric to make it look like she was showing skin in a competitive costume - http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41BrcNI5bVL.jpg - but maybe I'm confused and she is skating this season?

    not sure what year Maria B wore this, but it certainly wasn't in the last 10 years... http://alaskanmagic.smugmug.com/Other/Blog-It/i-SGLMrH7/0/X2/tumblr_m52dxdxlyN1r5ashao1_500-X2.jpg


    Jill's costumes were very much of their times. They look dated today, but at the time, that's what they wore.

    I always hated Maria B's custumes, almost without exception. They had no flow and did not enhance her look when she was moving. I can forgive almost any costume if it enhances the look of the performed program. That said, there is no good use for a unitard. I hate them without exception.

    No, I do not think costumes are out of hand. Skating dresses have alway been a mixed bag ranging from truly nausea-producing to sublime.

  6. #96
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    I think that the way how a costume appears will always be in the eye of the beholder.

    There are quite some cultural differences between Europe and North America, but also in Europe living in France is totally different to living in the Ukraine as example. Some countries are more prude than others, its nothing that we or the ISU can change and I think it would be wrong to change it, as it reflect´s the individual thing every culture has.
    I always love the costumes of the "ex UDSSR" states, just like I love those of the Spanish or the more calm designs of the Finnish. We need those differences, if everyone would dress in shirt and pants, it would become boring and you would have a hard time finding freedom in how to design your program.

    For instance, if you want to be a flame like Julia this year, then it just wouldn't fit if she would wear a smoking or an evening dress just because it fits into the dress code. We have dress codes at some sports, look at Wimbledon for instance where one of the players this year was actually asked to change her top, as it wasn't white enough.

    I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it as while not white, it wasn't colored either

    To me there is no "wrong" in the costumes design per se, yes some I like more some I like less - but the basic design isn't bad in a matter of "censorship needed". You can definitely argue about some cuts that were made and I absolutely understand the fear some of you have regarding the "sick minded in this world", but that they turn figure skaters into " the object of perverts" is really a bit too much.

    Those boys, girls, men & women deliver a performance and they should wear what they feel enhances their performance.

  7. #97
    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    As a skater myself, I find that costumes should enhance a performance. They should complement the skater, the music, the choreography. But, of course, that is all in the eye of the beholder. Most of the posters here can't skate, let alone have ever competed in figure skating, and that's fine. It's just that I urge many of you on behalf of the skaters to refrain from insulting criticism. The watchful eye of the judges can be glaring enough.

  8. #98
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinA View Post
    Jill's costumes were very much of their times. They look dated today, but at the time, that's what they wore.
    I know, it was tongue in cheek. To me this thread had one point and one point only and that was to attack several specific skaters. The argument that skating costumes have just now been horrible and are ruining the sport came a few pages later almost as an after thought. As you said, skating costumes have always had their fair share of tasteless and amazing costumes.

  9. #99
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    It was about costumes in general, some specific to this season. You are wrong Toni, and I resent your unfair, incorrect summary. When a mod comes in and says I don't agree, it kills opinions anyway, since one is never sure if u represent yourself or the board. But ur ASSUMPTION is wrong. Sorry.

    PS< I was half asleep typing last night, but wanted to add that I like the skating of Sotnikova and like hanyu's very much. It truly is the costumes and more dislike then like if you total up the comments. But when a mod weighs in repeatedly and then misrepresents the poster, people stop commenting as they disagree with you, but don't want to risk an infraction. That may be an assumption too, but just because you disagree that some costume look obscene on kids or wildly effeminate/glitzy for male fs doesn't mean you are correct. There are many variables. I have heard many comments from people, regardless of orientation about FS not being a real sport. The costumes the skaters wore until the eighties made it clear it was sport first, not pageant. And now people feel they must fix teeth, be a blond, look sexy at an early age. Is this done in any other sport? In the 80's is when costumes went over the top. But No one dared wear what Adelina is wearing. I had to explain all this as you are attacking ME. Not discussing my opinion. Thanks.

    There is some disagreement as to is it worse, but if you look at Peggy and Dororthy and all the skaters into late 70's, it was clear they were wearing an outfit made for skating. I personally think it isn't just IJS. Some people regard Johnny as entertaining. But there is a reason he never got the marks he may have earned, and a reason why SOI felt he was not what the SOI customer wanted to see, esp as he went "Gaga." Now he is a commentator. The sport never figured where he fit I or did not. He was more about himself -trying to shock people-than the skating as he went on.

    Did he do anything for the sport? No, because he acted like it was performance art after a certain point. We enjoy talking about costumes, but there is a place for a black unitard. Skating was judged in past, now it is a 'total package' as they say.

  10. #100
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I think blue dog's point was absolutely valid and his own opinion, not GS as a whole.

  11. #101
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here is what the ISU rules have to say (Rule 500, paragraph 2, page 80 of the official regulations ):

    At ISU Championships, the Olympic Winter Games and International Competitions, the clothing of the Competitors must be modest, dignified and appropriate for athletic competition – not garish or theatrical in design. Clothing may, however, reflect the character of the music chosen.

    a) The clothing must not give the effect of excessive nudity for athletic sport. Men must wear trousers; no tights are permitted. Accessories and props are not permitted. The decoration on costumes must be non- detachable.

    b) Clothing not meeting the foregoing requirements must be penalized by a deduction of 1.0 point (see Rule 353, paragraph 1.m) ii)).
    They recently dropped the language that said ladies must wear a skirt of sufficient length to cover the buttocks. That is, ladies can wear pants now -- but if they do wear a skirt, of course it must be modest, dignified and appropriate to athletic competition.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    There is some disagreement as to is it worse, but if you look at Peggy and Dororthy and all the skaters into late 70's, it was clear they were wearing an outfit made for skating. I personally think it isn't just IJS. Some people regard Johnny as entertaining. But there is a reason he never got the marks he may have earned, and a reason why SOI felt he was not what the SOI customer wanted to see, esp as he went "Gaga." Now he is a commentator. The sport never figured where he fit I or did not. He was more about himself -trying to shock people-than the skating as he went on.
    To be honest I don't think that this is really the case.

    While I wasn't born in the 70´s and therefore lack the "live experience" that some others here have, I honestly think that a lot what we see today was also present back then, but in a more "time related" background.

    The whole clothing style changes from generation to generation, so does the opinion about it. We have different age groups at the forum, just like we do have different types of skaters. A 15 years old has a totally different taste than a 26 years old.

    If we look at clothes from the 60s or 70´s then they are already very different to each other. If we now make a time jump to today, then that gap is even bigger. While we do have a basic design at figure skating outfits (mainly based on a performance impacting view) - some things automatically change over time. For instance are dresses today, much more involved in the choreography than maybe in the 60´s.

    Another point is that we do have many very young skaters right now that are fully in the spotlight, covered by the media. Everyone knows about the young Russian athletes, everyone knows about juniors - this has not been the case in such a persistent matter back then. Skating was a more "mature" sport so to speak and the coverage and accessibility to information much smaller than it is today.

    Annete Pötsch, Kati Witt, Beatrix Schuba, Peggy Flemming etc. all were around 19-21 when they were in the spotlight at the Olympics. Of course a "sexy" dress worn by them, does have a different impact on you than when a 14 years old wears it, but the dresses have always been there.

    If you compare Peggy´s outfit from 68´s LP, then this is not that different from what it reveals to the dresses of today. Don't forget that a Skater must perform in his / her outfit, that's why they are sticking to a basic design since centuries. While some of the patterns have changed, the basics stayed the same.

  13. #103
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Here is what the ISU rules have to say (Rule 500, paragraph 2, page 80 of the official regulations ):



    They recently dropped the language that said ladies must wear a skirt of sufficient length to cover the buttocks. That is, ladies can wear pants now -- but if they do wear a skirt, of course it must be modest, dignified and appropriate to athletic competition.
    Well there you have it. The rules are headed toward wear more revealing costumes, girls, and they are. I hope the skirt covered buttock language is re-instated and that those on the edge of trashy get deducted. But no one cares about modesty in western culture anymore. It is a global phenomenon. I have to say, as clothing, as art, the Indian women in saris (sp?) are just so beautiful. They know men are far more intrigued by modest beauty. That is what I admire-sadly we have Madonna, Brittany, Gaga, etc wearing bras, undies on tour on tv and twerking.

    I feel sorry for Russian cultural trends. It is Europe and Hollywood that pushed all the nudity, etc. Kids want to look like the celebs. I do miss wang/mk. A good team.

  14. #104
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I think the reason the ISU dropped the "Katarina Witt" language about skirts is not to allow shorter skirts but to let girls wear pants if they want.

    Here is Fumie Surguri in her modest pants and bustier.

    http://www.iceskate.net/skater%20pix...paridze_ap.jpg

    The interesting thing, to me, about the language is that the only thing that is absolutely forbidden is men in tights. I guess no more Robin Hood programs.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    There is some disagreement as to is it worse, but if you look at Peggy and Dororthy and all the skaters into late 70's, it was clear they were wearing an outfit made for skating. I personally think it isn't just IJS. Some people regard Johnny as entertaining. But there is a reason he never got the marks he may have earned, and a reason why SOI felt he was not what the SOI customer wanted to see, esp as he went "Gaga." Now he is a commentator. The sport never figured where he fit I or did not. He was more about himself -trying to shock people-than the skating as he went on.

    Did he do anything for the sport? No, because he acted like it was performance art after a certain point. We enjoy talking about costumes, but there is a place for a black unitard. Skating was judged in past, now it is a 'total package' as they say.
    Wearing sparkles does not make the performance any less athletic than a black unitard. But, as I said earlier in this thread, for many skaters the costume is an important part of their vision of the program: as you change into the costume and do your make-up, you start getting into the character of the program (not necessarily a character in the sense of Juliet or Quasimodo, etc., but the mood, the images, and ideas you seek to convey in the program). This aspect is more important to some skaters than to others. For some a black unitard may be as good as anything, irrespective of the music and choreography. In either case it should be the choice of the skater.

    You ask if Johnny has done anything for the sport. You might be surprised to know how many young skaters (and some adult skaters too) he has inspired. Yuzuru is one of them--he said early on that he looks up to Plushenko for his jumping ability and Johnny for his artistic expression. I have personally heard young skaters refer to Johnny as their inspiration. Many U.S. skaters are leery of saying so in public, however, precisely because U.S. figure skating has traditionally been dominated by the kinds of normative notions of gender expression displayed in your posts.

    I don't think that figure skating in the US has lost fans because there is too much "performance" involved in the sport. Nor do I think that dressing skaters in uniforms would suddenly make people who now say it's not a sport to think that it is, and create a larger fan base. To attract more fans the sport needs more exposure, charismatic skaters who win medals, and a good PR team that does not try to shove skaters into some pre-conceived mold of what a male of female skater should be. It's 21st century, and the younger generation--future fans--are much more open to a variety of gender expressions and to gender ambiguity. The sport needs to get with the program already!

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