3/3s under the COP and Michelle

apache88 · Jan 31, 2004

These have been bugging me because they just don't add up or make sense.

Why do "they" (I still don't know who design the COP) choose to reward 3/3s as if they are individual jumps? Why do they penalise the 3-3 jump sequence? Why do they not reward 3/3s or 3/3 jump sequences knowing that they are definitely harder than individual jumps?

OK, so the COP hates 3/3s, then why the need to even attempt 3/3s and risk falling? Why is Michelle then taking the 3/3s seriously? She's the queen of 6 or 7 triples, she might as well keep doing it without any 3/3s and garner the same points as those other skaters who successfully attempt their 3/3s. I'm very confused here.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 31, 2004

Apache - Your post questions more than MK but I will give my opinion on that first. I see MK as a strategist. Her triples are solid. There are 5 triples excluding the axel. She has them all, and will more or less land them successfully in compeitition although one never knows, does one. Her combos of 3x2 are also solid. Are her competitors 3x3s so solid? Many top tier lady figure skaters execute 3x3s in practice including MK. IMO, she will put one in if she skates later in the order of skate, and her top competitors successfully land theirs before her. If she skates near the top order, she more than likely will not try a 3x3. Clean artistic skating is what she is know for.

Combos are now a part of the repetoire of 'mujst do' jumps. 3x3s are more difficult than 3x2s we know so we accept the additional value which the CoP puts on them.

IMO, and it is only mine as far as I know is that a Combo IS a Combo IS a Combo. Credit for only one part of the Como for me is a failed Combo and should get zilch. However, the ISU allows a part of the Combo to be credited even if it breaks the Zayak Rule. I don't approve but then, I am not the ISU.

Joe

mzheng · Jan 31, 2004

There was an article posted weeks ago by a US judge who works with ISU for two years to design the the CoP. According to him, this is one of the problem feed back from the skaters/coaches/fans etc. need to bee tweaked before the CoP put into action.

As for 3/3, if you don't have 3Axel, and don't want a jump serials(which multiply 0.8), or do a 2A/3T kind, this is the only way you can have a 7 triples program. Under CoP only 7 jump passes are allowed and one of them must by axel type. this leaves 6 Triple jump passes. She need 3/3s if only just show judges she IS still Improving. This is what Judge likes to see.

hockeyfan228 · Jan 31, 2004

Joesitz said:
IMO, she will put one in if she skates later in the order of skate, and her top competitors successfully land theirs before her. If she skates near the top order, she more than likely will not try a 3x3. Joe

If ESPN has its way, it sounds like, according to the new TV contract, at least the final flight will be skating in reverse order, and Kwan will likely be skating at the end, rather than at the beginning of the flight.

nymkfan51 · Jan 31, 2004

mzheng is right ... with only 7 jumping passes permitted ... if Michelle is to do 7 triples, she must have a 3/3 somewhere ... and I think she will.

Mathman · Jan 31, 2004

I was puzzled by Apache's question, too. A 3L/3T combination gives you fewer points than a 3 Lutz alone and then a 3 Toe alone. But if the CoP is supposed to reward "difficult entries," what more difficult entry could there be to a 3T than a 3L?

Mathman

hockeyfan228 · Jan 31, 2004

When I first read the CoP instructions, they said to "apply" the GOE of the harder jump to the combination. I thought that meant take the GOE for the harder jump and add it to each jump. Then I found that it means "add" the GOE of the harder jump to the combination, which does degrade the combination, and sequences, which require more than a straight entrance to the second jump, are degraded even farther. Your comment is right on the mark.

mzheng · Jan 31, 2004

Mathman said:
I was puzzled by Apache's question, too. A 3L/3T combination gives you fewer points than a 3 Lutz alone and then a 3 Toe alone. But if the CoP is supposed to reward "difficult entries," what more difficult entry could there be to a 3T than a 3L?

Mathman

She might mean 3L 3T in sequence (with step between two jumps, which subject to 0.8 fact).

OT, here is something I posted at MKF to answer some critisicing about the no sense of CoP.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CoP is a very failed system in terms of judging combo/sequence jumps. A combination should always count a LOT more than if the two jumps were landed seperately. A triple toe triple toe is significantly harder than a triple toe, stroke to the other side of the rink, another triple toe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May be the system designed not to encourage you do 3/3 when actually a lot of top ladies can't do 5 type triples seperately with correct technique. Especially with the higher rate of injury related to practice those hard jumps. And most of top lady can't even land clean 5 triples LP without 3/3 in a regular bases. Just count how many clean 5/6 triples program without 3/3 we've seen in GP? And for those master the 5 single triple technique well enough they can earn extra points with the 7th triple in there program by perform a 3/3. It's just like a bonus points in your program.

Think about that way, students earn a little more bonus points by solving much difficult problem in examine.

sk8ing_lady2001 · Jan 31, 2004

I think Michelle will do very well landing 7 clean triples under the COP system. Her artistry would also work for her.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 31, 2004

Quote:

She need 3/3s if only just show judges she IS still Improving. This is what Judge likes to see

From what you say the skater must show the judges improvement from the previous year and not just what the skater did THAT NIGHT? For me that would mean, that your history of skating is also being judged on THAT NIGHT. am I correct?

Joe.

mzheng · Feb 1, 2004

Joesitz said:
Quote:

She need 3/3s if only just show judges she IS still Improving. This is what Judge likes to see

From what you say the skater must show the judges improvement from the previous year and not just what the skater did THAT NIGHT? For me that would mean, that your history of skating is also being judged on THAT NIGHT. am I correct?

Joe.

Yeah, that's what I read from one of Oficial Book from USFSA, which introduce the history of FS. Where it talks Judge not only judge by the performance at the event. They are also attending the practice session to access the base mark of each skater. And read some posters who over heard the disscusion between two judges at one of the lower level competetion, that judge most hated to see a skater made same mistakes from season to season.

If you don't want to show Judge the weakness you have just don't do too much in practice in front of judge. I believe that was the strategy Robin used with Sarah at last Nats/Worlds. One of the attendents posted that Sarah didn't do much of jumps (we all know last year her jumps mostly are underrotated) in practice, spend most time stay at board talk with Robin.

apache88 · Feb 1, 2004

Thanks guys.

As I've understood it, for example, GOE being equal, a 3z/3t combo gets the same points as the summation of both individual 3z and 3t. If so, why would Michelle or any other skater attempt the 3z/3t knowing that they can get the same points by just doing a 3z and a 3t? Why risk falling? Why the need for a 3/3 at all? If my understanding of the COP regarding 3/3s is correct, it's better for Michelle not to do it. Why would she risk falling on a 3/3 just to impress the judges (as some of you suggested) and get lower points from the fall. Isn't it much smarter for her to just do the individual triples and get the same points as she would from the 3/3 combo?

Unless (as Mzheng pointed out) a 3/3 is neccessary if a skater wants to repeat a jump and so it's the only way to make 7 triples without the 3A, it just doesn't make sense to attempt 3/3s for any skater. However, I thought as long as it was a combo be it a 3/2 or a 3/3, that triple jump could be repeated, just like the 6.0 system. So, was I wrong?

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 1, 2004

I think if a skater has done a triple toe and later in the program does a triple toe combo, the skater has done 3 triple toes in total. Those three plus 4 other triples make the seven.

If aa skater does the triple toe then later a triple toe double doe. That would make 2 triple toes and adding the other 4 triples wouild make six.

I believe the Zayak rule is ok with either of the above.

But just think of a lady with excellent presentation and a triple axel. Wow.

Joe

berthes ghost · Feb 1, 2004

Oy, this thread is doin' me head in.

Does the ISU even know what it wants?

One minute they are giving the gold to Sarah because she's the only one to do two 3/3s. No sooner is she crowned then they devise a new system where 3/3s are proclaimed no more valuable than 2 separate triple jumps. Which is it?

They willingly handed a world and Oly title to THE youngest girl in the comp (who looked even younger than she was) and then, before you can say "Tara's your Aunt", they changed the rules to make sure no 14 year old ever goes to the Olys again. What gives?

If the ISU has one consistant 'mission statement', it's lost on me as they seem to change thier mind more often then thier underware.

nymkfan51 · Feb 1, 2004

berthes ghost said:
Oy, If the ISU has one consistant 'mission statement', it's lost on me as they seem to change thier mind more often then thier underware.

berthes ... you are too funny! :laugh:

apache88 · Feb 1, 2004

I went back to check the COP for jumps and here's what it says:

"Only 2 jumps with 3 or more revolutions can be repeated and they MUST BE either in a jump-combination or in a jump-sequence".

So Mzheng was right and I was wrong in thinking that a triple in a 3/2 combo could be repeated. Now it all makes sense why skaters have to go for at least one 3/3. It's the only way for them to repeat one of the triples in order to make 7 triples. That means skaters who have the intentions to do 6-triple or less programs should never go for a 3/3 because they don't need to.

citrus · Feb 1, 2004

apache88 said:
I went back to check the COP for jumps and here's what it says:

"Only 2 jumps with 3 or more revolutions can be repeated and they MUST BE either in a jump-combination or in a jump-sequence".

So Mzheng was right and I was wrong in thinking that a triple in a 3/2 combo could be repeated. Now it all makes sense why skaters have to go for at least one 3/3. It's the only way for them to repeat one of the triples in order to make 7 triples. That means skaters who have the intentions to do 6-triple or less programs should never go for a 3/3 because they don't need to.

What is a "jump sequence"?

mzheng · Feb 1, 2004

citrus said:
What is a "jump sequence"?

When there is one step between two jumps. In another word if the landing edge from the first jump not the entry edge of the second jump then it is jump sequence. The jump sequence subject to 0.8 factor under CoP.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 2, 2004

mzheng said:
If you don't want to show Judge the weakness you have just don't do too much in practice in front of judge. I believe that was the strategy Robin used with Sarah at last Nats/Worlds. One of the attendents posted that Sarah didn't do much of jumps (we all know last year her jumps mostly are underrotated) in practice, spend most time stay at board talk with Robin.

I have watched several practice sessions now. I noticed that most skaters do not go over their complete routines for competition even when their music is playing. They do rehearse certain parts of the routine including spins and jumps. But it is pure practice; there is no pizzazz in what they do.

The boys have a field day, practicing their quads, triple axels and 3x3s, most of which they execute quite well in the practice. However, under pressure in the competition, many of them do not come up to their practice. What affect does that have on the judge who had watched the practice? Maybe the GOE will be less severe if the judge liked the practice. IMO, that's not fair.

Joe

Doggygirl · Feb 2, 2004

CoP Question....

Overall I'm personally a fan of CoP and think it has great potential. I have to think some changes might take place before a wide scale implementation. Has anyone heard of any specific feedback from the ISU about what changes they might be considering? It sure seems to me that a change to better reward a 3/3 (more than the sum of the parts) would be a good change.

Beyond the fact that CoP as we know it today requires a skater to do a 3/3 in order to have a 7X3 program.....I wonder if skaters such as MK are anticipating a CoP change to better reward 3/3's?

Just pondering..

DG

3/3s under the COP and Michelle

apache88

Joesitz (RIP)

mzheng

hockeyfan228

nymkfan51

Mathman

hockeyfan228

mzheng

sk8ing_lady2001

Joesitz (RIP)

mzheng

apache88

Joesitz (RIP)

berthes ghost

nymkfan51

apache88

citrus

mzheng

Joesitz (RIP)

Doggygirl

Similar threads

Connect with us