Reworking Ashley Wagner's Olympic Season LP into a great program, podium material

I disagree that 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half unbalances the program. Many skaters (especialy before the new code) had most of their jumps in the first half, and it was not an unbalanced program unless they were all too closely squeezed together (like all in one minute, rather than two). What I would worry about with Blades plan is Ashley having the endurance and strength to do a clean program with 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half. Other than that I like most of the other suggestions. Although I am not sure if Ashley even with the ideal program would ever get PCS above 70, although the Olympics tend to be more free giving with their scores (atleast Vancouver was).

3lo-2lo-2lo is such a weird combination- there would be almost no flow out of that last jump, likely incurring an ur.

I don't get the point of any of this. She needs to focus on practicing her jump layout exactly as it is now. That's how she's going to gel the program in time for the Olympics. Muscle memory is hugely important in high pressure situations, and she needs to skate clean. Her flawed programs this season are scoring above 125, showing that the judges already like what they see. A clean program will score huge.

Now, a discussion on changing up the footwork section, or the end of the program where jumps aren't involved is interesting. I wish they'd cut in Dance of the Knights somewhere. The program has good flow to it. Samson and Black Swan(to a lesser extent) were a little cluttered for my taste...especially during footwork. I wish she'd take out that Charlotte, since I believe it isn't effective or stretched out enough. A good, extended back spiral with dramatic arm positioning would fit much better.

pangtongfan said:

I disagree that 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half unbalances the program. Many skaters (especialy before the new code) had most of their jumps in the first half, and it was not an unbalanced program unless they were all too closely squeezed together (like all in one minute, rather than two). What I would worry about with Blades plan is Ashley having the endurance and strength to do a clean program with 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half. Other than that I like most of the other suggestions. Although I am not sure if Ashley even with the ideal program would ever get PCS above 70, although the Olympics tend to be more free giving with their scores (atleast Vancouver was).

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I'm fine with 5 in the second half. As long as there is sufficient difficulty to open the program, and as long as the 5 jumping passes are separated by other elements. Like in Julia's program, if she separated her mini jump fest with a spin or her ChSp, it would less like "okay and here are my remaining jumping passes". I think 4 passes in a row is a stretch, but okay; 5 shows a lack of creativity in balancing the elements. It would be like putting all three spins together or skaters who shove both footwork sequences back to back. People watch skating for jumps interspersed in a program, not reeled off within seconds of each other. The back half is 2 minutes so it seems unnecessary to cram 5 triples and 2 double axels into 70-80 seconds.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

It would be like putting all three spins together or skaters who shove both footwork sequences back to back. People watch skating for jumps interspersed in a program, not reeled off within seconds of each other.

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Kurt Browning did 4 Triple Toeloops with just a few seconds inbetween each one in some his Pro programs and people loved it.

Mao Asada "shoves both footwork sequences together" and nobody is complaining about it. Jeffrey Buttle put both of his footwork sequences back-to-back in his 2008 SP, won Worlds, and wasn't attacked for having poor choreography. Really, your criticisms are a bit inane. You're not talking about choreography at all.

Here are two programs where skaters put 3 spins near each other and I greatly enjoy both of them:

Carolina Kostner 2005 SP

Vanessa Gusmeroli 2000 LP

Sure, it's boring if people just go through their elements as if they are ticking them off (Evan Lysacek 2010, Miki Ando 2011, lots of SP's in the past that put all 3 jumping passes right at the start of the program) but that doesn't mean having a certain number of jump/spin/footwork elements together is inherently bad. I mean, HELLO, that's what transitions are for to begin with!

The long program makes the decision Ashley made to part ways with Mills even more perplexing. Maybe she should bring him in to doctor this one.

How would you feel if a skater put 1 jump in their opening, and 6 jumps together right after the halfway point?

Also, that program of Carolina's is enjoyable until her piling up all 3 spins at the end... and closing with her weakest spin at that. It's like "Oh wait, I have 3 spins to do, too... let me just knock those off."

And Gusmeroli's program is fine until she's literally spinning and then spinning and then spinning again.

For visual interest, you need to mix up the elements of a performance. Some people will argue that they loved Shizuka's 4 donut spins in her Olympic LP, but it got repetitive. If you reel off 5 triple jumps (or, 7 triple/2A jumps in your layout) in a short period of time, that is really poor construction -- and LOOKS like a skater is merely ticking off elements.

What is your aversion to her putting a spin in between the 5 jumping passes? Or putting her ChSp1 before her final jumping pass in your layout?

As Blades of Passion pointed out, I think it's an error to leave out the "Dance of the Knights" section. There are a few measures of it used indiscriminately, but it does not have the impact that using a major section would have. However, I think this was intentional. I seem to remember an interview with Ashley where she made a point to mention that they weren't using the more popular melodies of the piece. I think it's an error.

I agree with those who think her LP should be re-worked to make it more impactful. But is there time?

she doesn't need rework in her LP, she only needs to skate clean, doubt it though
and her two footed 3-3 attempts will come back to haunt her by Olympics, she is already slowing down and getting worn out for the season

Wagner be in shock by Nationals when Gracie Gold beats her

sky_fly20 said:

she doesn't need rework in her LP, she only needs to skate clean, doubt it though
and her two footed 3-3 attempts will come back to haunt her by Olympics, she is already slowing down and getting worn out for the season

Wagner be in by Nationals when Gracie Gold beats her

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Wagner's GP scores have been 193.81 (2nd) followed by 194.37 (1st).

Gold's GP scores have been 186.75 (3rd) followed by 177.81 (4th).

Who's slowing down exactly?

Icey said:

The long program makes the decision Ashley made to part ways with Mills even more perplexing. Maybe she should bring him in to doctor this one.

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I agree that her programs with Mills were better. I don't think it's likely they will be working together again, given how they parted. I also agree that the music cuts are not good--no Dance of the Knights, a big mistake. I hated Wilson's music cuts for Yu Na's Les Mis last year, too. I think he is trying to go against the grain--not that it hurt Yu Na. The same is probably true for Ashley. If she hits her elements, she will score well.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Wagner's GP scores have been 193.81 (2nd) followed by 194.37 (1st).

Gold's GP scores have been 186.75 (3rd) followed by 177.81 (4th).

Who's slowing down exactly?

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Wagner was overscored and her LP wasn't clean at TEB even the headcase Adelina beat her
Wagner once starts getting unclean will go downhill from there, remember last year
after GPF, overscored at Nationals with mistakes and the withdrew from 4CC

Gracie gold might be a bit lightly inconsistent but she can always bounce back
she has what Wagner lacks a huge 3-3 combos, spins and speed !

as I have said Gracie Gold is the No.1 US lady not Wagner

You think every skater that you don't like is overscored.

LOL @ calling Gracie a "bit lightly inconsistent". In 3 out of 4 GP programs this year, she's made at least 2 mistakes. And unlike Wagner, she's fallen multiple times.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpcan2013/gpcan2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2013/gpjpn2013_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpjpn2013/gpjpn2013_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

I suppose you'd say Hanyu "lightly" messed up in his quads in his TEB FS and was underscored for those errors.

You're so adamant that Gracie is the #1 US Lady. Wagner has a 1st and 2nd on the GP, whereas Gracie has a bronze. Wagner is going to GPF, Gracie is not. Gracie has never defeated Wagner. Until that happens, Ashley is #1.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

How would you feel if a skater put 1 jump in their opening, and 6 jumps together right after the halfway point?

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Again, it all depends on the music, the idea of the program, and the actual choreography and delivery. If the entire first half of a program was set to softer music and the skater had lovely spins, footwork, and other choreographic movements, then it could work. After that section the music could become explosive and the jumps could all come. Maybe the idea behind the program would be portraying a country pre-war vs. the turmoil created by wartime.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Also, that program of Carolina's is enjoyable until her piling up all 3 spins at the end... and closing with her weakest spin at that. It's like "Oh wait, I have 3 spins to do, too... let me just knock those off."

And Gusmeroli's program is fine until she's literally spinning and then spinning and then spinning again.

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I disagree. In Gusmeroli's program especially the spins were interesting and gentle, working beautifully with the music and the entire program concept. She danced between them and that whole section felt so intimate and warmly nostalgic. It was like a reflection of peaceful respite after living through something epic.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

For visual interest, you need to mix up the elements of a performance.

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Visual interest is about the movement, the shapes, the skater's emotion, and how it all works as an entire package. I've seen performances with no jumps that are amazing, performances with no spins that are amazing, and performances with no real "footwork" to speak of that are amazing. Obviously competitive programs have all kinds of necessary requirements, and spreading technical elements out can help to achieve the desired end result of creating an engaging program, but what you're suggesting is very homogenous regulation. CoP already provides enough of that.

If you stop and think about it, my program suggestion actually has the technical elements spread out MORE. 99% of all Long Programs these days have two jumping passes as the first two technical elements of the program. My program has a jump and then a spin. Then another jump, then footwork, and then another spin. The first half of the program would actually display a greater "spread" of elements than any other program out there.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

What is your aversion to Ashley putting a spin in between the 5 jumping passes? Or putting her ChSp1 before her final jumping pass in your layout?

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Because that wouldn't work with the music? Her choreography sequence needs to be there so she can end it with the split jump into lunge. That's a perfectly choreographed moment and it transitions very effectively into a final spin to close out the program. There's no reason to alter it.

Your assertion that 99% of programs have 2-5 layouts is completely incorrect.

It's also completely incorrect to say your jump elements are balanced when mathematically 30% of the jump BV is in the first half and 70% is in the second half.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Your assertion that 99% of programs have 2-5 layouts is completely incorrect.

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I never said that, I said 99% of all Long Programs having 2 jumping passes as the first two technical elements. And it's completely true. The majority of Long Programs actually have 3 jumping passes in a row at the start. And a lot of those programs then put 4 jumping passes in a row right after the halfway point of the program. But somehow, in your mind, spacing the elements out better in the first half of the program and putting one extra jump in the second half violates your skating code?

And why are you going on about 70% of the base value of jumps being in the second half, as if that's an inherently bad thing? If someone can pull that off, it's a great athletic feat and could definitely enhance a program. I like Florent Amodio's program that had a "2-6" jump layout, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldaZRcLzjts

For pre-CoP programs, Todd Eldredge's "Gettysburg" was his best program ever and it only had 2 jumping passes in the first half of the program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41B8-RB9tw

I'd say Ashley wouldn't have much problem doing a 3T-2A sequence, you never know but it's almost a certainty considering she used to do 3T-3T sequences. Also the idea of back loading her program is actually a good one as Ashley has the drive and ability to power through exhaustion to pull out jumps under less than ideal circumstances (2012 GPF). Also it'd rake in the points she would lose from exempting the 3-3 in the FS which honestly seems to be taking too much of her energy and focus. The ChSq is great and really goes with the dark rhythm of that section and its simplicity is brilliant.

One thing I might not agree with is the 3F-2L-2L as the tech panel loves to call 2L-2L combinations and the judges don't like handing out +GOE on them, a 3F-2T-2L would probably be a little safer in terms of consistent scoring. Other than the 3-2-2 I agree with all the recommendations, you sound like you're a choreographer have you ever sent these kind of recommendations to the skaters/their team?

I just wish that Ashley would go back to "The Red Violin" for the SP and "Black Swan" for her LP. Neither of her programs this year have 'It' as far as I'm concerned. They just don't feel "Olympic" to me while her previous programs did. :disapp:

zamboni step said:

I'd say Ashley wouldn't have much problem doing a 3T-2A sequence, you never know but it's almost a certainty considering she used to do 3T-3T sequences. Also the idea of back loading her program is actually a good one as Ashley has the drive and ability to power through exhaustion to pull out jumps under less than ideal circumstances (2012 GPF). Also it'd rake in the points she would lose from exempting the 3-3 in the FS which honestly seems to be taking too much of her energy and focus. The ChSq is great and really goes with the dark rhythm of that section and its simplicity is brilliant.

One thing I might not agree with is the 3F-2L-2L as the tech panel loves to call 2L-2L combinations and the judges don't like handing out +GOE on them, a 3F-2T-2L would probably be a little safer in terms of consistent scoring. Other than the 3-2-2 I agree with all the recommendations, you sound like you're a choreographer have you ever sent these kind of recommendations to the skaters/their team?

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I'm not saying she's incapable of two sequences... I'm saying it makes no sense to have two 2A sequences, especially when doing a 2L on the end of the 3L would garner more points and be safer/easier to execute. You can't tell me that putting a 2L on the end of a 3L is out of her ability and that a 3L-2A sequence is expending less energy.

Has there ever been a program executed by a woman with 5 triples and 2 double axels executed in the second half (let alone in 1 1/2 minutes) or anything even close to that?

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

I'm not saying she's incapable of two sequences... I'm saying it makes no sense to have two 2A sequences, especially when doing a 2L on the end of the 3L would garner more points and be safer/easier to execute.

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STOP saying this. It is NOT true. You made this silly claim in the Plushenko thread too. Everything comes down to individual preference and in Ashley's case a 3Loop-2Axel sequence is better for her. Don't you understand that controlling the landing of a Triple to put a 2Lo on the end can be very difficult? You don't have the benefit of steadying yourself before going into it, like you do a 2Toe combination or a 2Axel sequence. Ashley is talented at taking the momentum from her jump landings and springing into a 2Axel.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

You can't tell me that putting a 2L on the end of a 3L is out of her ability and that a 3L-2A sequence is expending less energy.

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It's not out of her ability to simply do it, but it's out of her ability to execute consistently in the second half of a program with good +GOE. Like I already said before, Ashley can get +2 GOE for a 3Loop-2Axel sequence. She can't get that with 3Loop+2Loop, which means the 3Loop-2Axel sequence will score higher.

I never said it would expend less energy either. It comes down to precision vs power, though. Doing a 2Loop requires more precision. Some people are much more talented on that movement than others and it also depends a lot on the type of jump for each skater, with regards to what they are best at doing a combination with. Ashley benefits from her raw power and stamina.