Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 91

Thread: Reworking Ashley Wagner's Olympic Season LP into a great program, podium material

  1. #16
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,102
    Ashley's SB score is slightly higher than the one Mirai had at the Vancouver Olympics.

  2. #17
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,011
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    At the least, it makes no sense why you have a 3L-2A in the second half when a 3L-2L would garner more points for Ashley, and is way easier to execute.
    It isn't easier to execute for her. Why do you keep saying this? If you watch Ashley's performances from years ago when she actually tried 3Lo+2Lo, the execution was average or shaky. On the other hand, Ashley has been doing +2Axel combinations ("sequences") for a long time and almost always executes them very well. She can get +2 GOE from a 3Loop+2Axel. On a 3Loop+2Loop she'll get +1 GOE at most, more likely 0 GOE. Plus, as I've already said, it's not just about technical score (where Ashley would already benefit), but also about the presentation. If you watch Ashley's LP from 2010, you can see how exciting it is when she does these combinations late in the program. It helps her PCS to go for my planned jump layout.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And it's weird that you think a 3L-2L-2L would be hard to execute, but a 3Z, 3F, 3L and two double-axel sequences crammed in a minute is a walk in the park. If she misses any of those 5 passes, there is very little recovery time, and it could be a very costly domino effect.
    Why do you keep thinking every skater is the same? Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. There a LOT of skaters who couldn't execute a good 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo combination (especially later in a program). Just look at Yu-Na Kim, who would never want to try such a thing, but is able to do phenomenal 3Lutz+3Toe and 3Flip+3Toe combinations.

    Now, with regards to my plan for Ashley, it isn't all of the those jumps "crammed in a minute". They would take place over the course of 1 minute and 20 seconds, when counting the buildup. Plus, as I have already said, it's not actually very different from her current plan. She is already trying to do 4 Triples, a Double Axel, and a couple other double jumps in combination (for a three-jump combination!) together in the second half of her program. My plan would remove the three-jump combo from the second half of her program and then just replace the current Layback spin with a 3Toe+2Axel. It's easier than her current layout, gets her MORE points (when considering GOE potential and PCS), and has less risk on top of it. Win/Win.

  3. #18
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,021
    How do you know that she can execute a 3T-2A sequence? They're on two completely different entry lines.

    Also, as I said, she has had issues with XX-2A sequences at last year's GPF and US Nats.

    The only reason she does the double axel sequence is to fulfill her axel jump requirement. I do not think she would be comfortable doing two triple-2A sequences.

    Regardless of if it takes 45 seconds or 80 seconds, five jumping passes in a row is lazy choreography and skaters shouldn't turn their second half into a mini-top jump competition.

  4. #19
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,011
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    How do you know that she can execute a 3T-2A sequence?
    Ashley has done 3T-3T sequence and 3F-2A sequence consistently in the past. She can definitely do 3T-2A.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The only reason she does the double axel sequence is to fulfill her axel jump requirement. I do not think she would be comfortable doing two triple-2A sequences.
    What on Earth are you talking about? Ashley already does a solo 2A in her current program and she did last year as well (planning to do 3Toe on the end). She has been doing the 3Lo-2A this whole time because she's better at it than 3Lo+2Lo. The mistake on it at the GPF last season was just a freak accident. You clearly didn't watch the program I referenced either, because Ashley used to do two triple-2A sequences in competition, late in her program.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Regardless of if it takes 45 seconds or 80 seconds, five jumping passes in a row is lazy choreography and skaters shouldn't turn their second half into a mini-top jump competition.
    I'm sorry, but you don't know much about choreography if you're making a statement like that. Everything is driven by the music and character of the piece. There's no "one-size-fits-all" formula. If a skater was able to do 5 competitive-level jumping passes in 45 seconds, that could actually be AMAZING (given that it went with the music). They would have SO much remaining time in the program to fill it with other movements. Kurt Browning's Casablanca "stroll around the ice", for example. We never get to see something like that in competitive skating anymore and it's really sad.

  5. #20
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,021
    Okay. How do you feel about a program that has all 6 or 7 jumping passes in the second half that each match the music. It only makes sense to get the spins and footwork out of the way, get all bonuses and put the fireworks at the end.

    Sorry we disagree but 5 jumping passes in a row defies the definition of what a balanced program should be. Especially 5 triples and 2 double axels in 1 minute and a bit.

  6. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    I disagree that 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half unbalances the program. Many skaters (especialy before the new code) had most of their jumps in the first half, and it was not an unbalanced program unless they were all too closely squeezed together (like all in one minute, rather than two). What I would worry about with Blades plan is Ashley having the endurance and strength to do a clean program with 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half. Other than that I like most of the other suggestions. Although I am not sure if Ashley even with the ideal program would ever get PCS above 70, although the Olympics tend to be more free giving with their scores (atleast Vancouver was).

  7. #22
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    207
    3lo-2lo-2lo is such a weird combination- there would be almost no flow out of that last jump, likely incurring an ur.

  8. #23
    Tripping on the Podium
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Gautier, Mississippi
    Posts
    62
    I don't get the point of any of this. She needs to focus on practicing her jump layout exactly as it is now. That's how she's going to gel the program in time for the Olympics. Muscle memory is hugely important in high pressure situations, and she needs to skate clean. Her flawed programs this season are scoring above 125, showing that the judges already like what they see. A clean program will score huge.

    Now, a discussion on changing up the footwork section, or the end of the program where jumps aren't involved is interesting. I wish they'd cut in Dance of the Knights somewhere. The program has good flow to it. Samson and Black Swan(to a lesser extent) were a little cluttered for my taste...especially during footwork. I wish she'd take out that Charlotte, since I believe it isn't effective or stretched out enough. A good, extended back spiral with dramatic arm positioning would fit much better.

  9. #24
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,021
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I disagree that 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half unbalances the program. Many skaters (especialy before the new code) had most of their jumps in the first half, and it was not an unbalanced program unless they were all too closely squeezed together (like all in one minute, rather than two). What I would worry about with Blades plan is Ashley having the endurance and strength to do a clean program with 5 jumping passes in the 2nd half. Other than that I like most of the other suggestions. Although I am not sure if Ashley even with the ideal program would ever get PCS above 70, although the Olympics tend to be more free giving with their scores (atleast Vancouver was).
    I'm fine with 5 in the second half. As long as there is sufficient difficulty to open the program, and as long as the 5 jumping passes are separated by other elements. Like in Julia's program, if she separated her mini jump fest with a spin or her ChSp, it would less like "okay and here are my remaining jumping passes". I think 4 passes in a row is a stretch, but okay; 5 shows a lack of creativity in balancing the elements. It would be like putting all three spins together or skaters who shove both footwork sequences back to back. People watch skating for jumps interspersed in a program, not reeled off within seconds of each other. The back half is 2 minutes so it seems unnecessary to cram 5 triples and 2 double axels into 70-80 seconds.

  10. #25
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    4,011
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    It would be like putting all three spins together or skaters who shove both footwork sequences back to back. People watch skating for jumps interspersed in a program, not reeled off within seconds of each other.
    Kurt Browning did 4 Triple Toeloops with just a few seconds inbetween each one in some his Pro programs and people loved it.

    Mao Asada "shoves both footwork sequences together" and nobody is complaining about it. Jeffrey Buttle put both of his footwork sequences back-to-back in his 2008 SP, won Worlds, and wasn't attacked for having poor choreography. Really, your criticisms are a bit inane. You're not talking about choreography at all.

    Here are two programs where skaters put 3 spins near each other and I greatly enjoy both of them:

    Carolina Kostner 2005 SP

    Vanessa Gusmeroli 2000 LP

    Sure, it's boring if people just go through their elements as if they are ticking them off (Evan Lysacek 2010, Miki Ando 2011, lots of SP's in the past that put all 3 jumping passes right at the start of the program) but that doesn't mean having a certain number of jump/spin/footwork elements together is inherently bad. I mean, HELLO, that's what transitions are for to begin with!

  11. #26
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,102
    The long program makes the decision Ashley made to part ways with Mills even more perplexing. Maybe she should bring him in to doctor this one.

  12. #27
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,021
    How would you feel if a skater put 1 jump in their opening, and 6 jumps together right after the halfway point?

    Also, that program of Carolina's is enjoyable until her piling up all 3 spins at the end... and closing with her weakest spin at that. It's like "Oh wait, I have 3 spins to do, too... let me just knock those off."

    And Gusmeroli's program is fine until she's literally spinning and then spinning and then spinning again.

    For visual interest, you need to mix up the elements of a performance. Some people will argue that they loved Shizuka's 4 donut spins in her Olympic LP, but it got repetitive. If you reel off 5 triple jumps (or, 7 triple/2A jumps in your layout) in a short period of time, that is really poor construction -- and LOOKS like a skater is merely ticking off elements.

    What is your aversion to her putting a spin in between the 5 jumping passes? Or putting her ChSp1 before her final jumping pass in your layout?

  13. #28
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    544
    As Blades of Passion pointed out, I think it's an error to leave out the "Dance of the Knights" section. There are a few measures of it used indiscriminately, but it does not have the impact that using a major section would have. However, I think this was intentional. I seem to remember an interview with Ashley where she made a point to mention that they weren't using the more popular melodies of the piece. I think it's an error.

    I agree with those who think her LP should be re-worked to make it more impactful. But is there time?

  14. #29
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    7,378
    she doesn't need rework in her LP, she only needs to skate clean, doubt it though
    and her two footed 3-3 attempts will come back to haunt her by Olympics, she is already slowing down and getting worn out for the season

    Wagner be in shock by Nationals when Gracie Gold beats her

  15. #30
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    5,021
    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    she doesn't need rework in her LP, she only needs to skate clean, doubt it though
    and her two footed 3-3 attempts will come back to haunt her by Olympics, she is already slowing down and getting worn out for the season

    Wagner be in by Nationals when Gracie Gold beats her
    Wagner's GP scores have been 193.81 (2nd) followed by 194.37 (1st).

    Gold's GP scores have been 186.75 (3rd) followed by 177.81 (4th).

    Who's slowing down exactly?

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •