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Thread: Reworking Ashley Wagner's Olympic Season LP into a great program, podium material

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    The long program makes the decision Ashley made to part ways with Mills even more perplexing. Maybe she should bring him in to doctor this one.
    I agree that her programs with Mills were better. I don't think it's likely they will be working together again, given how they parted. I also agree that the music cuts are not good--no Dance of the Knights, a big mistake. I hated Wilson's music cuts for Yu Na's Les Mis last year, too. I think he is trying to go against the grain--not that it hurt Yu Na. The same is probably true for Ashley. If she hits her elements, she will score well.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Wagner's GP scores have been 193.81 (2nd) followed by 194.37 (1st).

    Gold's GP scores have been 186.75 (3rd) followed by 177.81 (4th).

    Who's slowing down exactly?
    Wagner was overscored and her LP wasn't clean at TEB even the headcase Adelina beat her
    Wagner once starts getting unclean will go downhill from there, remember last year
    after GPF, overscored at Nationals with mistakes and the withdrew from 4CC

    Gracie gold might be a bit lightly inconsistent but she can always bounce back
    she has what Wagner lacks a huge 3-3 combos, spins and speed !

    as I have said Gracie Gold is the No.1 US lady not Wagner

  3. #33
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    You think every skater that you don't like is overscored.

    LOL @ calling Gracie a "bit lightly inconsistent". In 3 out of 4 GP programs this year, she's made at least 2 mistakes. And unlike Wagner, she's fallen multiple times.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SP_Scores.pdf
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

    I suppose you'd say Hanyu "lightly" messed up in his quads in his TEB FS and was underscored for those errors.

    You're so adamant that Gracie is the #1 US Lady. Wagner has a 1st and 2nd on the GP, whereas Gracie has a bronze. Wagner is going to GPF, Gracie is not. Gracie has never defeated Wagner. Until that happens, Ashley is #1.

  4. #34
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    How would you feel if a skater put 1 jump in their opening, and 6 jumps together right after the halfway point?
    Again, it all depends on the music, the idea of the program, and the actual choreography and delivery. If the entire first half of a program was set to softer music and the skater had lovely spins, footwork, and other choreographic movements, then it could work. After that section the music could become explosive and the jumps could all come. Maybe the idea behind the program would be portraying a country pre-war vs. the turmoil created by wartime.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Also, that program of Carolina's is enjoyable until her piling up all 3 spins at the end... and closing with her weakest spin at that. It's like "Oh wait, I have 3 spins to do, too... let me just knock those off."

    And Gusmeroli's program is fine until she's literally spinning and then spinning and then spinning again.
    I disagree. In Gusmeroli's program especially the spins were interesting and gentle, working beautifully with the music and the entire program concept. She danced between them and that whole section felt so intimate and warmly nostalgic. It was like a reflection of peaceful respite after living through something epic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    For visual interest, you need to mix up the elements of a performance.
    Visual interest is about the movement, the shapes, the skater's emotion, and how it all works as an entire package. I've seen performances with no jumps that are amazing, performances with no spins that are amazing, and performances with no real "footwork" to speak of that are amazing. Obviously competitive programs have all kinds of necessary requirements, and spreading technical elements out can help to achieve the desired end result of creating an engaging program, but what you're suggesting is very homogenous regulation. CoP already provides enough of that.

    If you stop and think about it, my program suggestion actually has the technical elements spread out MORE. 99% of all Long Programs these days have two jumping passes as the first two technical elements of the program. My program has a jump and then a spin. Then another jump, then footwork, and then another spin. The first half of the program would actually display a greater "spread" of elements than any other program out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    What is your aversion to Ashley putting a spin in between the 5 jumping passes? Or putting her ChSp1 before her final jumping pass in your layout?
    Because that wouldn't work with the music? Her choreography sequence needs to be there so she can end it with the split jump into lunge. That's a perfectly choreographed moment and it transitions very effectively into a final spin to close out the program. There's no reason to alter it.

  5. #35
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    Your assertion that 99% of programs have 2-5 layouts is completely incorrect.

    It's also completely incorrect to say your jump elements are balanced when mathematically 30% of the jump BV is in the first half and 70% is in the second half.

  6. #36
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Your assertion that 99% of programs have 2-5 layouts is completely incorrect.
    I never said that, I said 99% of all Long Programs having 2 jumping passes as the first two technical elements. And it's completely true. The majority of Long Programs actually have 3 jumping passes in a row at the start. And a lot of those programs then put 4 jumping passes in a row right after the halfway point of the program. But somehow, in your mind, spacing the elements out better in the first half of the program and putting one extra jump in the second half violates your skating code?

    And why are you going on about 70% of the base value of jumps being in the second half, as if that's an inherently bad thing? If someone can pull that off, it's a great athletic feat and could definitely enhance a program. I like Florent Amodio's program that had a "2-6" jump layout, by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldaZRcLzjts

    For pre-CoP programs, Todd Eldredge's "Gettysburg" was his best program ever and it only had 2 jumping passes in the first half of the program: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J41B8-RB9tw

  7. #37
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    I'd say Ashley wouldn't have much problem doing a 3T-2A sequence, you never know but it's almost a certainty considering she used to do 3T-3T sequences. Also the idea of back loading her program is actually a good one as Ashley has the drive and ability to power through exhaustion to pull out jumps under less than ideal circumstances (2012 GPF). Also it'd rake in the points she would lose from exempting the 3-3 in the FS which honestly seems to be taking too much of her energy and focus. The ChSq is great and really goes with the dark rhythm of that section and its simplicity is brilliant.

    One thing I might not agree with is the 3F-2L-2L as the tech panel loves to call 2L-2L combinations and the judges don't like handing out +GOE on them, a 3F-2T-2L would probably be a little safer in terms of consistent scoring. Other than the 3-2-2 I agree with all the recommendations, you sound like you're a choreographer have you ever sent these kind of recommendations to the skaters/their team?

  8. #38
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    I just wish that Ashley would go back to "The Red Violin" for the SP and "Black Swan" for her LP. Neither of her programs this year have 'It' as far as I'm concerned. They just don't feel "Olympic" to me while her previous programs did.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni step View Post
    I'd say Ashley wouldn't have much problem doing a 3T-2A sequence, you never know but it's almost a certainty considering she used to do 3T-3T sequences. Also the idea of back loading her program is actually a good one as Ashley has the drive and ability to power through exhaustion to pull out jumps under less than ideal circumstances (2012 GPF). Also it'd rake in the points she would lose from exempting the 3-3 in the FS which honestly seems to be taking too much of her energy and focus. The ChSq is great and really goes with the dark rhythm of that section and its simplicity is brilliant.

    One thing I might not agree with is the 3F-2L-2L as the tech panel loves to call 2L-2L combinations and the judges don't like handing out +GOE on them, a 3F-2T-2L would probably be a little safer in terms of consistent scoring. Other than the 3-2-2 I agree with all the recommendations, you sound like you're a choreographer have you ever sent these kind of recommendations to the skaters/their team?
    I'm not saying she's incapable of two sequences... I'm saying it makes no sense to have two 2A sequences, especially when doing a 2L on the end of the 3L would garner more points and be safer/easier to execute. You can't tell me that putting a 2L on the end of a 3L is out of her ability and that a 3L-2A sequence is expending less energy.

    Has there ever been a program executed by a woman with 5 triples and 2 double axels executed in the second half (let alone in 1 1/2 minutes) or anything even close to that?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm not saying she's incapable of two sequences... I'm saying it makes no sense to have two 2A sequences, especially when doing a 2L on the end of the 3L would garner more points and be safer/easier to execute.
    STOP saying this. It is NOT true. You made this silly claim in the Plushenko thread too. Everything comes down to individual preference and in Ashley's case a 3Loop-2Axel sequence is better for her. Don't you understand that controlling the landing of a Triple to put a 2Lo on the end can be very difficult? You don't have the benefit of steadying yourself before going into it, like you do a 2Toe combination or a 2Axel sequence. Ashley is talented at taking the momentum from her jump landings and springing into a 2Axel.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You can't tell me that putting a 2L on the end of a 3L is out of her ability and that a 3L-2A sequence is expending less energy.
    It's not out of her ability to simply do it, but it's out of her ability to execute consistently in the second half of a program with good +GOE. Like I already said before, Ashley can get +2 GOE for a 3Loop-2Axel sequence. She can't get that with 3Loop+2Loop, which means the 3Loop-2Axel sequence will score higher.

    I never said it would expend less energy either. It comes down to precision vs power, though. Doing a 2Loop requires more precision. Some people are much more talented on that movement than others and it also depends a lot on the type of jump for each skater, with regards to what they are best at doing a combination with. Ashley benefits from her raw power and stamina.

  11. #41
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    As an aside, you are one of my favourite posters, Blades of Passion. So I appreciate reading the critique of Ashley's program and how it may be improved. I look forward to your analysis of Yu-Na's programs in about 10 days time :D

  12. #42
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I'm not saying she's incapable of two sequences... I'm saying it makes no sense to have two 2A sequences, especially when doing a 2L on the end of the 3L would garner more points and be safer/easier to execute. You can't tell me that putting a 2L on the end of a 3L is out of her ability and that a 3L-2A sequence is expending less energy.

    Has there ever been a program executed by a woman with 5 triples and 2 double axels executed in the second half (let alone in 1 1/2 minutes) or anything even close to that?
    My comment wasn't really directed at you, just a comment. Although I'd definitely say a skater's preference is a powerful thing indeed, if you even feel just little bit more comfortable and less shaky with combination x over combination y, do x even if it's worth a little bit less points! Another thing to consider is, if trying 3L-2L, that 3L has to go pretty well other wise no combo as getting a loop off a messy jump is near impossible. Another thing to consider is if she messes up the 3L a little, she still has the step into the 2A to steady herself and get a decent 2A out, if the 2A is nice the judges won't deduct much and you won't get the dreaded +SEQ. The +2A sequence just seems like a much more secure idea for her right now rather than the tricky business of adding a 2L to a 3L in the second half when you're legs are shaky as it is.

    I still question the idea of 3F-2L-2l though....

  13. #43
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    If you look at Ashley's 3L, she can easily do a 2L. But even a 3L-2T nets just 0.3 less than a 3L-2A sequence. A 3T-2A sequence has only 0.57 extra value. That is not worth the risk of a double axel. I'm 99% certain Ashley would NOT be able to execute the content you've suggested and certainly not capable of 5 triples and 2 double axels in less than a minute and a half.

    Like I said, feel free to provide an example of any female skater who has ever executed that kind of jump content in such a short window in a free skate. And no, Julia's 5 second-half passes are not comparable as they are 4 triples and 1 double axel.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    If you look at Ashley's 3L, she can easily do a 2L. But even a 3L-2T nets just 0.3 less than a 3L-2A sequence. A 3T-2A sequence has only 0.57 extra value. That is not worth the risk of a double axel. I'm 99% certain Ashley would NOT be able to execute the content you've suggested and certainly not capable of 5 triples and 2 double axels in less than a minute and a half.

    Like I said, feel free to provide an example of any female skater who has ever executed that kind of jump content in such a short window in a free skate. And no, Julia's 5 second-half passes are not comparable as they are 4 triples and 1 double axel.
    Did you see how Ashley looked at the end of her 2012 TEB and Skate America Free Skates having dumbed down her content? She looked like she could have done another program right there and then, she definitely has the drive and stamina to do it if she's conserving her energy through easier tech content. But seriously having seen how Ashley jumps, it's clear doing a 2A off her jumps is easier for her than a 2L, higher chance of +GOE too.

  15. #45
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    And at the GPF and US nationals? Her sequence failed her there.

    Note that at Ashley's GP events this year, she has messed up her final jumping pass(es). So I fail to see how she would benefit from *adding* another jumping pass to the second half, let alone a triple-2A sequence. It can't be more obvious that she's reached the peak of how ambitious her 2nd half can be, if she's making errors with less content than what BoP has suggested.

    A good choreographer also acknowledges the limitations of a skater, something which BoP has failed to do IMO.

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