Are B/S the Rus No.1 ? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Are B/S the Rus No.1 ?

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Pogorilaya arguably who has lower PCS than Tuk got 28+ in TEB with a waxel
then I dont see how Tuk cant get above 29+ in PCS

and this thread is for B/S scandalous CoR marks
not for any other skaters, so... :rolleye:

As I said, Tuk can get above 29 PCS but shouldn't be getting it when she has errors.

Yeah, I was pointing out that B/S is just part of the scandalous marks given out at CoR, including higher-than-normal PCS for Tuk.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
This event has had some of the most disgraceful judging of the whole quadrennial. We all know V&T will win the pairs gold, but beyond that if this is what the judging is like all other Russian success in Sochi bar the pairs will be seriously tainted, and could threatened the sports future in the Olympics.

B&S should not be Russian #1. They are a very mediocre and boring team who wins all their medals through politics and poor judging. She is one of the most awful skaters to ever be top 5, let alone a World medalists with his gremlin posture and poor skating skills. However based on the scoring here they probably still are.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Julia's score was also a total joke. I like her a lot and am one of her biggest supporters on these boards. She also did deserve to win the SP over Kostner IMO, even though Kostner is the overall better skater when on and was clean, due to the much harder triple-triple combination. However getting a score 3 points higher than Yu Na Kim's SP at Worlds last year, LOL! Also gaining several more points in GOE than a clean Kostner (even if her spins are probably better).

Based on this event I am not sure if I will even bother to watch the figure skating at the Olympics. It will be a Russian invitational.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Julia is consistent and skates clean with better speed and interpretation at CoR , her score were bound to go up
Kovtun landed 2 quads, Tuk had above her normal SP mess, she got 58 at Euros with 3lz-2t and 3lo step out
Osmond did what exactly to merit above 60+ at Skate Canad with bad jumps and a fall !!! ? :sarcasm:

Hahah I didn't read the poster's name and then read the last line and I knew who it had to be. LOL
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
I hope not B/S programs this season do not deserve an Olympic medal, if they were smart they should be pushing for I/K who could even content for silver
besides the TC here was Piseev's wife totally a different Tech Panel by Olympics and none from the Top 5 countries that placed

Alla S. (Piseev's wife) was not the Tech Controller (Alpern - ISR was the TC), Alla was the Referee at the Russian GP and she definitely could be a Referee or judge on the Olympic panel. She just can't be on the tech panel in Sochi.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I/K seemed to be lost for a few years, but they redeemed themselves in the recent TEB. They were impressive, fast, and had extraordinary lifts. They aced both the SD and FD, and the emptiness of their content as well as lack of conditioning kept dragging them lower and lower down the ranks in previous seasons. Earlier in the season, they seemed to continue the downward spiral pattern, but they made a massive comeback.

At this point, I/K deserve to the Russian No. 1. The judges highly rewarded them in TEB, while B/S were beat by P/B who were in turn beat by I/K a few weeks later.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
have to agree that I/K, even with flaws, are much more enjoyable to watch than B/S. :disapp:
 

Mirunna

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 12, 2009
I don't think currently there is a clear Russia no.1 and Russia no.2 like last season. We all knew that IF I/K start to get their act together they are the better skaters and this is exactly what is happening. Unfortunately I/K won't make the GPF, which would have given everyone the opportunity to see I/K and B/S against each other under an international panel (and I bet whomever would place in front, would have been Russian champions).
However, since I/K are the ones to beat a healthy P/B (which, IMO, still are the front runners for the bronze medal), they kind of made a statement with that. I don't think B/S beating a subpar P/B at worlds made the same statement....especially since P/B mopped the floor with them in China. This might be a key factor at Russian Nationals
 

noidont

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
What I think is going to happen: B/S finishing 5th or 6th at GPF, winning RUS nats by less than a point, then off the podium at Euros, when I/K gets 2nd even 1st. Because it's all so intertwined, it's unclear to judges who RUS No.1 really is, neither team gets a medal at Sochi. Wonderful for W/P or C/L....

Morozov had done his math. Technically, I/K is not going to lose to B/S by much due to huge GOE on their FD lifts. The problem for I/K is that they are younger and their coach is also younger (and not very well liked by judges and officials I could only assume). Jumping lines is not appreciated in ice dance in general. The other contenders for the OBM are all in their late 20s or 30s.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Do you even realize that for Julia to have gotten 75 points, her PCS would have to have been 2.76 points higher, as in 35.37 PCS.
Kim's personal best PCS is 33.80, Kostner's is 33.85, and Asada's PB (on Japanese ice, no less) is 34.37

Mark my words, at the rate "this" is going, Julia's going to break Yuna's WR short program score in a year or two. Yikes.
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
It's puzzling why the Russian Federation would dismantle the team that is their 3 time Russian National Champions, defending European champion, World medalist, and only team that has won a Grand Prix event (2) during the past four years, for a team that has proven immensely talented but repeated inconsistent during that same period of time. Regardless of ones' preference in terms of programs this season, that would seem to be a hugely risky strategy for them heading into the Olympics. It seems to me that international judges put TREMENDOUS weight in dance especially on the ranking or pecking order of teams as established by National championships, and to 'dethrone' B/S would essentially give the rest of the judges reason to completely dump them, only to put all of Russia's hopes in I/K's unproven basket.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
It's puzzling why the Russian Federation would dismantle the team that is their 3 time Russian National Champions, defending European champion, World medalist, and only team that has won a Grand Prix event (2) during the past four years, for a team that has proven immensely talented but repeated inconsistent during that same period of time. Regardless of ones' preference in terms of programs this season, that would seem to be a hugely risky strategy for them heading into the Olympics. It seems to me that international judges put TREMENDOUS weight in dance especially on the ranking or pecking order of teams as established by National championships, and to 'dethrone' B/S would essentially give the rest of the judges reason to completely dump them, only to put all of Russia's hopes in I/K's unproven basket.

I don‘ understand how should supporting of I&K looked like? After Junior Worlds 2010 everybody was talking about them like about next Olympic champions, nobody else existed. Every year during Russian Nats I heard Tarasova, Piseev, Shechovcova and Russian comentators saying so beautiful things about the couple I&K: ,,They are sooo incredibly talented, natural talented, brilliant, beautiful…“
Every year Russian journalists and Russian Figure Skating Federations starts season with the same…,,Who is number 1 in Ice Dance?“ Every season Bobrova & Soloviev must prove to everybody that they are still number 1.

This year as well as all years Bobrova has more difficult programs with more difficult between elements parts, more closed and more dance holdings. While Lena and Nikita spends almost one minute even not holding each other in free skate (like pair couple). Lena took classical music and skates classical story. Bobrova took classical music and skates unusual story (I don’t remember another team in top couples trying to portray birds and I even don’t know if anyone would be able to portray it). Maybe this is dangerous to try something so extraordinary for Olympic season, maybe it will not pay off, but Zhulin was always known as somebody who doesn’t like ordinary things and always pushes to something special. (I remember cricital words about Don Quijote and Schindler List for Lena and Nikita at the beginning of season 2009/10 and 2010/11, finally it paid off and fans loves these programs, last year free program for Bobrova – they were many critics too and finally it paid off).

Head to head Lena and Bobrova met many times (only once Lena won – at Worlds 2012 while Bobrova fell in short dance, all others competitions won Bobrova)
Season 2010/11:
Cup of Russia 2010: B&S 1. place, I&K 3. place
Russian Nats 2010: B&S 1. place, I&K 3. place
Euros 2011: B&S 2. place, I&K 4. place
Worlds 2011: B&S 6. place, I&K 7. place

Season 2011/12:
Russian Nats 2011: B&S 1. place, I&K 2. place
Euros 2012: B&S 2. place, I&K 3. place
Worlds 2012: I&K 5. place, B&S 7. place

Season 2012/13:
GPF 2012: B&S 5. place, I&K 6. place
Russian Nats 2012: B&S 1. place, I&K 2. place
Euros 2013: B&S 1. place, I&K 2. place
Worlds 2013: B&S 3. place, I&K 9. place
.... I can't think that all judges and technical panels were always pushed to support Bobrova more than Lena...(after 3 season it would be almost every judge and technical specialist working in ISU...simply too many people)

Bobrova competed in GP Final 3 times, Lena once.

Supporting skaters when competition is in their home country is such a normal thing…Lena and Nikita won bronze medal at Cup of Russia 2010 (Nikita fell in short dance, they didn’t execute a lift in short dance at all and still get 49 points, their skating was shacky in free dance and they got 85 points), at Russian Nats 2011 Lena fell in short dance and they still held second position in front of other teams including Riazanova with clean skate, and Cup od Russia 2012 where Lena fell in free dance and they got 92 points and second place).

It will be interesting to see how will next time meeting look like…
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
It will.

One team did do birds as professionals. Bestemianova & Bukin did as a pro routine.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Mark my words, at the rate "this" is going, Julia's going to break Yuna's WR short program score in a year or two. Yikes.

That all depends on how Julia survives puberty and growth. It's easy to do 3/3s when you weigh 85 lbs and have no hips.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Yes they are officially. This is also just the first half of the season. Their team cannot be oblivious to the problem's they're having. When you compare their FD to its inspiration though how sad. Their program needs softness, some tenderness and connection between the couple to really work. Rather you see a pair just trying to accomplish elements. The music is too abrupt for the empathy you want to evoke for the pair. Domnina and Tikhonov just have perfect pitch where the interpretation of this program is concerned. As delivered by B/S this program lacks focus or cohesion, especially since they changed the music. After she is shot you sense no sadness, tenderness or physical weakness, they just continue skating at high speed barely seeing each other. Then in the end she has the energy to step up into a high lift right before she dies!! The person really responsible for this fiasco is Zhulin. He has managed this pair poorly in an Olympic season no less. IMHO, both their SD and FD as originally delivered are much more interesting than their current work. Zhulin is the one who has buckled under the Olympic pressure. One has to wonder why.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Yes they are officially. This is also just the first half of the season. Their team cannot be oblivious to the problem's they're having. When you compare their FD to its inspiration though how sad. Their program needs softness, some tenderness and connection between the couple to really work. Rather you see a pair just trying to accomplish elements. The music is too abrupt for the empathy you want to evoke for the pair. Domnina and Tikhonov just have perfect pitch where the interpretation of this program is concerned. As delivered by B/S this program lacks focus or cohesion, especially since they changed the music. After she is shot you sense no sadness, tenderness or physical weakness, they just continue skating at high speed barely seeing each other. Then in the end she has the energy to step up into a high lift right before she dies!! The person really responsible for this fiasco is Zhulin. He has managed this pair poorly in an Olympic season no less. IMHO, both their SD and FD as originally delivered are much more interesting than their current work. Zhulin is the one who has buckled under the Olympic pressure. One has to wonder why.

He just isn't the most talented coach and choreographer out there, plus his students aren't the most naturally gifted. He hasn't helped his students achieve masterpieces. Krylova and Camerlengo have, as P&B, W&P, Faiella & Scali, etc. all peaked and expressed their potential under their tutelage.
 

Jagger

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Head to head Lena and Bobrova met many times (only once Lena won – at Worlds 2012 while Bobrova fell in short dance, all others competitions won Bobrova)
...

Is it correct to compare the results of couples skated three seasons with the couple skated seven seasons? The age difference between Elena and Ekaterina is too 4 years (between Nikita and Dmitry 2, but I think the right to look for a weak partner, Nikita has long been a top skater).
In the dance was always a queue. Last season, there were at least two competitions when I&K even with horrible programs were not worse, but of course they could not be put up. 0.11 points difference at the European Championships is jeweler work... :)
If you compare their senior seasons, the IK, on the contrary, all win except one competition (World Championship in Olympic year - what could be easier? :)))

first season I&K B&S
WC 7 13
EC 4 -
NC 3 -

second season I&K B&S
WC 5 -
EC 3 -
NC 2 4


third season I&K B&S
WC 9 8 (but OG 15)
EC 2 9
NC 2 2

Progress Ilynykh is much better, moreover, its best score is already of 3.5 points higher.

You constantly write about the fact that the BS program more difficult. And you can prove it analysis of dance?
I counted the simple steps in the dance of the BS:
21 running steps of Dmitry (3, 2, 2, 5, 1, 2, 1, 3, 3, 1)
35 crossovers(!) (1, 3, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3)

Are they scaters or crazy defenders of the Detroit Red Wings?

At a comparable speed and ice coverage Nikita needs:
14 running steps (1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2)
16 crossovers (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1)

I think it will be interesting to know the opinion of Tatiana Tarasova. As you know, it's the most powerful figure skating woman in Russia, produced 12 Olympic champions, personally acquainted with Putin :) and will comment on the Olympic Games in Russia. In recent weeks, she helps train the IK in the Novogorsk.
She said an interesting thing after the Cup of Russia. Unfortunately, professional translation is not found, it is necessary to read my, I think, a little better than google translate:
http://www.sovsport.ru/gazeta/article-item/662931

- At the COR event for some reason, we skated only one program. And Kovtun and Lipnitskaya and couples and dancers with Bobrova Soloviev . Bobrova did mistakes in a short dance on several elements, she fell in FP. No one will forgive more mistakes. And leading couples of the world teach us not to make mistakes. Why they can not make mistakes, but we can not ? Coaches are responsible for solving this problem, but my question is addressed and athletes too. They are urgently need to turn on brains and try to understand how many times do you need to repeat on training you to be sure of myself. Someone needs to do it a hundred times, and someone and thousands of small.
- How "unforgiveness" will look?
- They will come to them in the image of their own results. And these results will affect the rest of their lives. It is a pity that I&K were not included in the GPF. This is unfair. They love training in this season. I love everything that they do. In Paris, they got standing ovations, and it's a very difficult to do in Paris. The public can not be deceived. The public is not stupid.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
You constantly write about the fact that the BS program more difficult. And you can prove it analysis of dance?
I counted the simple steps in the dance of the BS:
21 running steps of Dmitry (3, 2, 2, 5, 1, 2, 1, 3, 3, 1)
35 crossovers(!) (1, 3, 2, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3)

Are they scaters or crazy defenders of the Detroit Red Wings?

At a comparable speed and ice coverage Nikita needs:
14 running steps (1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2)
16 crossovers (1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1)


It would be so simple to look at difficulty of program throught crossovers…and quite funny…I counted crossovers in some others skater‘s free programs – men partners and the result (nobody made more than 1 to 3 crossovers in one sequence):
- Kostomarov 2005 Worlds – 23 crossovers, Maxim Shabalin 2010 Olympics – 25 crossovers, Charlie White 2013 NHK – 26 crossovers, Scott Moir 2013 TEB – 22 crossovers, Andrew Poje 2013 COR – 21 crossovers, Luca Lanotte 2013 NHK – 29 crossovers, Fabian Bourzat TEB 2013 – 21 crossovers
…..so the results is that….Nikita is the best technician of all times or at least this year…it would also mean that Fabian and Andrej Poje are as good as Scott, both of them and together with Kostomarov they are all better than Charlie White (Max Shabalin with injured knee also knocking down Charlie)….NO…
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
And now seriously: why are Lena and Nikita’s dances less difficult…you noticed free dance…OK

- the speed of music – Vivaldi is two times faster than Swan Lake, which means that if you want to show the rhythm you have to be 2 times faster in movements than in Swan Lake…which explains more crossovers from Dima (you can hardly do crossovers over 5 strokes in music…Dima and Katya also have more mohawks, choctaws, three turns and turns…Lena and Nikita are more polite in moves…yes!!! they have time for it and their music is demanding it more than Vivaldi music which is crazy and frenetic.

- skating like singles - Lena and Nikita are spending 57 seconds even not touching each other, it is a one quarter of the free dance, Bobrova and Soloviev are not touching each other 32 seconds.

- difficult holds positions - skating in open position is more easy for gaining speed. Also English commentators are talking constantly that Lena and Nikita are very fast but they have open holdings and they are not touching each other… quotation: ,,Much more open in the skating…arm in arm allows the speed to be easily build than when you are in closed dance hold.“ Bobrova and Soloviev are more in closed positions, they also change hands posititons during dance which is more interesting (her hand around his waist/shoulder from front side, shoulder from back side/around neck), Lena and Nikita has less variety in holdings, less closed positions.

By the way in short dance Lena and Nikita spend in closed position 48 second (Finnstep included) while Bobrova and Soloviev 91 seconds….
(Trankov can be proud of himself…he is almost like dancer…with choreo made by Morozov who included some closed holds, Trankov spends almost as much time in dance position as Nikita does)

- two footed skating – more in Lena and Nikita’s dance

- resting in program – Bobrova and Soloviev are skating fast through whole program without stops. Lena and Nikita stops skating 3 times. Lena and Nikita‘s first resting part - after second lift - they both skate on two feet and than stands on one foot just looking at each other – this resting part takes 9 seconds. Lena and Nikita’s second resting part – after third lift – she stops and stands on two foot for 5 seconds, than Nikita two footed skating for 4 seconds, Lena does few running steps, one three turn and spiral position, then she lies down on Nikita’s leg (part demanding nothing from skating skills) – the second resting part takes 17 seconds.
After spin they are skating slowly 8 second, than they start to prepare and gain the speed before twizzles.
Lena and Nikita’s third resting – after twizzles – 8 seconds when they stop, than skate slowly and another 6 seconds gaining speed before steps sequence.

- twizzles - in general what is discussed watching twizzles of all couples – it is more difficult to make twizzles without long preparation when judges and fans almost don’t expect than twizzles may come right now. In Lena and Nikita’s programs you always know, they prepare for it for 6 seconds in free dance and everybody knows it will come. Bobrova and Soloviev come with twizzles from steps and almost from nowhere…it suddenly happens…that is aprreciated more. Twizzles itself are better executed by Lena and Nikita.

- 2 step sequences – again those open holds and long distance from Lena and Nikita, many ,,waiting for moments“ – Lena does turns, Nikita waiting, Nikita does turns and Lena is waiting, nothing like this in Bobrova & Soloviev dance.

- complexity of movements – hands, legs, head…all together…more in Bobrova and Soloviev dance…

What I take as difficulty of program is also what is it about…it is more difficult to express moves of bird’s wings to frenetic music than to skate a story of ,,two strong characters loving and feeling passionate to each other“. For Lena the same story line with the same expression like in past 3 years. For Bobrova something absolutely new demanding completly different arm/head movements, they never skated anything like that before.
 
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