Are B/S the Rus No.1 ? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Are B/S the Rus No.1 ?

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Trying to imagine that other top skaters would be forced to skate I&K and B&S programs, top 15 from Worlds would be able to skate Lena’s Swan Lake from technical side, with elegant look – Tessa, Nathalie, Meryl, Weaver, Cappelini, Chock, even all Russian couples would catch it technically….Trying to imagine who would be able to skate Birds from B&S….Charlie wouldn‘t be fast enough probably (he really looks in pain skating anything fast), Tessa looked so struggling with Carmen physically – Birds are much faster, Nathalie and Fabian are slow overall, Cappellini doesn’t have technical ability for this and her straight legs would be in danger. Weaver & Poje are not so dynamic, Chock skates to rather slower music.

Lena and Nikita skated to fast music (but not as fast as Vivaldi) only in some parts of programs in past - (last part of Latin dance – Lena wasn’t able to reach the dynamics of Jen Lopez‘s song, Nikita did, last 10 seconds od Don Quijote with spin and crossovers only, last 15 second of their SD at Junior Worlds – doing simple steps only, Polka wasn’t in such fast rhythm unfortunately, Morozov forgot to tell that group who recorded it that Polka must be fast dance). Lena’s moves are not dynamic, that is one of the resons why Nikita takes peoples attention to himself during dance. Personally I take Nikita as one of the best skaters in dancing field, Lena is lovely gliding but it is always obvious that Nikita slows down because of her and always keeps watching for what is she doing to avoid some problems in dance…he also never complained about Lena’s speed or about fact she is not helping him in lifts. That is very nice and kind from him. But thanks to it I think Nikita would be able to skate Birds, but Lena not, it would be too fast for her.

Mentioning one thing – you are talking about men – Nikita and Dima – but we are always watching couple and couple is judged. Nikita is better dancer and partner than Lena is. But considering the program you need to watch both of them. Without Nikita Lena wouldn’t be as fast, she would be forced to make more difficult elements with another partner (last three years Nikita has more difficult parts in dances), she would be forced to be more fixed in lifts like others girls are. Watching Lena during program only (especially in more passionate and dynamic rhythms) you wouldn’t be as enthusiastic about the dance.

And another note about your comment – I never said that Nikita is worse skater than Dima, I wrote that their programs are not difficult. Which is not about the ability of Nikita skating difficult parts. I think that Nikita is able to skate much more difficult programs than Morozov is creating for them, and with Nikita Lena would be able to deal with it to. Big question for Morozov…why is he hiding the technical ability of Nikita???? All couples are trying to get fully to their potential, to learn as much as possible…but this couple is not showing their full potential, why? Nikita finally learns lifts, Lena is still staying in darkness talking about helping partner in lifts. But what about the rest of program…any progress?
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
What Nikita needs to do and and I sense he will is to ensure that he balances the dynamism of his skating with his technique. In the past he has been very erratic with this. Over the last three seasons he has been the one almost always making silly mistakes and costing them high placements. Elena skated DQ brilliantly in Russia while Nikita completely fell apart. I sense because of this Lena is forced to be more business like and hemmed in during competitive programs. I find her to be quite soft, feminine and charming. She is more expressive in exhibitions when she is not overly concerned about technique. IMHO she also has the best twizzles in ice dance right now. She can do them in her sleep it would appear. So they balance each other nicely. In time she will break out of her shell during competitions. She was very lovely at TEB. But she will maybe never be as explosive as Nikita and she doesn't have to be.

What I find telling is the need for people to put her down and drive a wedge between them at every possible opportunity. It tells me more about the author than the pair being "skewered".
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
What Nikita needs to do and and I sense he will is to ensure that he balances the dynamism of his skating with his technique. In the past he has been very erratic with this. Over the last three seasons he has been the one almost always making silly mistakes and costing them high placements. Elena skated DQ brilliantly in Russia while Nikita completely fell apart. I sense because of this Lena is forced to be more business like and hemmed in during competitive programs. I find her to be quite soft, feminine and charming. She is more expressive in exhibitions when she is not overly concerned about technique. IMHO she also has the best twizzles in ice dance right now. She can do them in her sleep it would appear. So they balance each other nicely. In time she will break out of her shell during competitions. She was very lovely at TEB. But she will maybe never be as explosive as Nikita and she doesn't have to be.

What I find telling is the need for people to put her down and drive a wedge between them at every possible opportunity. It tells me more about the author than the pair being "skewered".

Lena has lovely twizzles really.
Mentioning COR 2010, in short dance Nikita fell, he was obviously effected by not doing lift few second before the fall….the lift was Lena’s fault, she didn’t toughen her body, that’s why the lift wasn’t even executed, she stayed in his arms and did nothing. But I don’t care who makes a mistakes, we are watching a couple, if one makes a mistakes, it touches both of them. In sport of two you have to count with your mistakes as well as your partners mistakes. They wouldn’t reach anything without each other.

We are discussing board…we discuss skating, not only personal sympathy…Nikita is better skater than Lena (not including twizzles)…that is obvious to everybody who understands the sport. Maybe he is too careful about Lena, maybe he should more concentrate to his skating (than to Lena), who knows, maybe he is making more mistakes because he has more difficult choreo than she does, who knows.
Seperate the couple…what are you talking about???…I never noticed it and I never planned to write something like that. By the way people writes at this board very critically about Monko&Khaliavin, Sinitsina&Zhiganshin, Stepanova&Bukin – you protect Lena from my opinions about her technic comparing to Nikita….do you protect young Russian teams in front off public who constantly writes that the couples doesn’t look well together, girls all to big and tall? And many people criticised Kostomarov and Goncharov and Margalio in past…did you protect them also with the fear that the couple would split because of it???

Sorry but if lady is not able to be dynamic and passionate (and is soft only)…her dancing creativity is in danger…it closes many music cuts because she wouldn’t be able to deal with it – you NEED passion and dynamics in tango, flamenco, Carmen, Latin music, every fast piece of music. Dance couple should be able to skate to anything….really anything….Tessa and Natalie are flexible in this point, all past years Worlds and Olympics champions were able to be, Weaver and Meryl tries to, even Bobrova is trying to change with story and music…and many others….but Lena doesn’t need to? Why? Dancing is not about being beautiful only, it is about dancing….dancing abilities….which also means creativity and flexibility in executing different genres of music.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
I think it will be interesting to know the opinion of Tatiana Tarasova.

Yes, I heard about that interview…I also made short notice about Tarasova praising I&K in their topic here…together with some pictures of Lena’s advertisements to change direction of discussion and to take off some bad words of one writer (who made advises to them about finishing carrer – I think it is very poor from somebody to write like that, everybody who loves skating and wants skate is allowed to skate, no?).

I respect Tarasova as the person who made so much for Russian skating. But some opinions she had last years…I don’t agree with. Starting with Kovtun affair, this year he seems to shine, but last years she pushed him to all Euros, Worlds and World Team Trophy. He bombed at Worlds, didn’t skate well at Trophy, it was not right decision to send him there. And the decision was made by her, not by Federation (no matter what articles say). Tarasova was so cruel to Leonova during 2010/11 season, when Alena struggling during GP season, but watching Adelina’s mistakes, Tarasova forgives.

During 2010/11 season Soloviev was very often struggling with twizzles, Tarasova was so angry at him, constantly sending him to psychologist, to be able to deal with pressure. We all know that Nikita is struggling with twizzles also, I never heard that Tarasova would be punishing Nikita so hardly. (Even if she really thought that anybody needed psychologist, maybe it would be even more tactful not to talk about it during TV transmission, she could do it in privacy).

Tarasova and Bobrova & Soloviev mistakes and fall at this year COR – last year Lena fell at COR like Bobrova did this year, no bad comments from Tarasova about Lena‘s accident, they were all like ,,such things happen“. This year Lena made a mistake in straight line sequence during free dance as I noticed in TEB topic and the couple didn’t get levels at NHK, Tarasova didn’t notice and she still thinks that couple deserves the final?
Lena and Nikita’s last Worlds disaster in free skate – so many mistakes in almost all elements, so shacky skating….Tarasova didn’t criticise. Strange.

Tarasova was talking about Lena and Nikita since they won Junior Worlds 2010, they were always so talented, brilliant and exceptional for her. Tarasova always loved Lena and Nikita. She was working with them in past too, during Russian Nationals 2012 she talked about working with Lena and Nikita, about problems inside of the group. During short dance Tarasova said about Lena and Nikita: ,,They are not doing things which they should do during practise sessions (pointing the lack of physical streng also), it would be suprising for me if they would be skating CLEANLY in this short dance!“ (Lena fell during short dance). Tarasova is not demanding clean skate from number 2 couple even at Russian Nats???? She also pointed big talent which have to be supported with big amount of work. She noted that it is important to work hard and long….

To work hard and long…which takes me to another thing which Tarasova noticed…This year Lena and Nikita started loving hard work (Lena and Nikita are confirming every season since 2010 that their approach to work changed so much…) Does it mean that Tarasova noticed change of their work ethic only this season while Lena and Nikita were talking about it since 2010?
Tarasova complained about their work ethic at Nats 2012, and she also critised Morozov for not being good teacher for kids in article form this season. Sudenly she comes to Novogorsk and she can see kids started love to work (I can’t imagine that some skaters would allow themself not to work in front of great Tatiana Tarasova).

Jagger….all top skaters are hard workers and most of them are even workaholics... from the beginning of their skating career….Lena and Nikita started to love working in October/November 2013 when Olympics is in February 2014…Is this info something what should be shocking for all skating word??? Why?

What I absolutely agree with....all American and Canadian skaters are better prepared and in better form than any Russian couples and most of other Euros couples (which we could see not only at GF but also during some competitions at the beginning of the season).
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
It would help Russian dancers to look more prepared if they could have their programs essentially finished by early August, and not make huge changes later in the up season, something that seems to keep happening.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
:slink::scratch::no::think: A whole lotta stuff just got really weird on this thread. Like rabid beasts yeah!! Bring on the GPF or bust!! LOL.:rolleye:
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
It is a pity that I&K were not included in the GPF. This is unfair. They love training in this season. I love everything that they do. In Paris, they got standing ovations, and it's a very difficult to do in Paris. The public can not be deceived. The public is not stupid.

Tarasova saying good things about Ilinykh/Katsalapov:eek: Maybe this means they are not going to hold back Elena and Nikita at national championships like Weaver/Poje. Dance holds or not İlinykh/Katsalapov's dance looks beautiful and they are deserving national title for this year.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
:slink::scratch::no::think: A whole lotta stuff just got really weird on this thread. Like rabid beasts yeah!! Bring on the GPF or bust!! LOL.:rolleye:

The topic is about B&S being number one. We are discusing B&S and their main on ice rivals I&K, do you know about somebody else who we forgot to talk about? I don't think some other couple would be able to reach number 1 in Russia.

We are talking who is better/more deserving etc. What's wrong about it?

GPF? But that would be off topic, Lena & Nikita are not there.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Is it correct to compare the results of couples skated three seasons with the couple skated seven seasons? The age difference between Elena and Ekaterina is too 4 years (between Nikita and Dmitry 2, but I think the right to look for a weak partner, Nikita has long been a top skater).

Talking about couple number 1….it is not about the age, it is about who is the best right now. I don’t understand argueing about the age. Tessa is younger than Meryl, does it mean she should win the Olympics 2014 because looking at age, she was progressing faster?

How can you compare different season’s results with different judges/technical specialists and even different skaters from previous Olympic cycle? And every year there are some changements in judging system. Plus compulsory dance, how can you compare competition with and without compulsory dance? With bad compulsory dance couple had a big problem to get better placement in the rest of the competition. We all remember than Lena & Nikita were struggling a lot during their first senior waltz, with compulsory dance it would be more obvious and they wouldn’t finish fourth at Euros 2011.

Well…look back in 2008, Bobrova & Soloviev are young couple, 2007 Junior Worlds winners, they are not counted as brilliant, nobody talks about them like about next Olympics champions….Russians had Domnina and Khokhlova, they didn’t need more….suddenly Maxim Shabalin has to withdraw because of injury and B&S suprisingly comes to their first Worlds. Like nobody who would be supported by Federation which put effort in Khohlova winning bronze there.

Now 2010/11 season….Elena & Nikita won 2010 Junior Worlds, immediatelly everybody in Russia and not only in Russia talked about them like about future Olympic champions, there were many interviews and fotoshoots. I understand. They were lovely. And…Domnina&Shabalin finished career, Khokhlova&Novitski were forced to finish due to Novitski’s injury, Rubleva also finishing (she wasn’t counted as promising also), Russian Federation needed another couple for next cycle and for the Olympics in Sochi. They already had Bobrova, but reigning Junior Worlds champions sounds better than 2007 Junior Worlds champions. Federation and many people completedly forgot than Lena and Nikita were Junior number 2 during whole season, they lost to Monko&Khaliavin who dominanted at JGPF and Russian Junior Nats (Monko&Khaliavin were leading couple for whole season until Junior Worlds). Lena and Nikita won Junior Worlds, the most important competition in junior circuit and it changed everything. I&K came to GP 2010/10 like so great and talented kids, Russian Federation supported them and even with bad skating (and thanks to withdraw of some couples) they got bronze at COR 2010. I&K skated Russian Nats 2010 with mistakes but judges and Tarasova forgived (they are so young) puttting them in third and sending at Euros. At Euros another big propaganda about so talented kids and future Olympic gold medalist, talking about challenging Tessa and Meryl. Before Worlds a big documentary about Lena & Nikita was shown in TV, Lena promises to dedicate her Olympic gold medal to her grandmother. Everybody – Lena, Nikita, Alexander Zhulin, Vlasova, Lena’s mom and gradmom are happy how things and work is going, many compliments to coach team. I don’t remember documentary about couples before winning Olympics and Worlds, I only remember documentaries after the victories. I call this another big propaganda. So, as you see the situation when Bobrova and Lena came at Worlds for the first time was absolutely different.

Only at 2010 Worlds after short dance Bobrova&Soloviev started to be counted like ,,supported team“ when Domnina&Shabalin already finished and Khokhlova&Novitski withdraw, and Bobrova finished eighth.

If you are talking about Lena & Nikita fast progressing in results… do you mean that today they are more talented than Navka, Domnina, Annisina, Krylova, Grishuk, Fusar-Poli, Pechalat, Usova, Klimova…because all those couples started their senior career behind top 10? And because of that Lena & Nikita deserve number 1 in Russian Team?
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I/K aren't in the GPF because they bombed their first event. They are the first alternate in the event that a team withdraws.

IMO, they are a far more talented team than B/S, but their performances are also notoriously more erratic. You never know what you are going to get from I/K when they step on the ice. They can be brilliant, or they can be a mess.

I don't see B/S (23 and 24) retiring after Sochi. They could easily continue on to 2018, barring injury, and considering that I/K are still not quite stable, the Russian federation will likely encourage them to stay in. None of the other Russian teams seem to have the talent or charisma to become the next big thing.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I/K aren't in the GPF because they bombed their first event.

This. I don't understand why people are up in arms about B/S making the final and them not making it. Their levels in both segments at NHK were low, and rightfully cost them a podium spot (even though I'm no fan of the Shibs, they were technically superior).

I am actually really surprised they won over P/B in France, when you would have though P/B with home ice advantage would have easily won (although the extended lift was a silly technicality that cost P/B the silver).

I/K is one of my favourite teams to watch, but it's hardly unexpected that they didn't make the GPF.

They were 9th at Worlds last year... B/S were 3rd... is it really all that surprising that B/S are being pushed as the top Russian ice dance team? I/K aren't going to magically jump from 9th to 3rd, so the Russian fed is better off pushing the reigning World bronze medalists (even if B/S are worse this year than I/K).
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Tarasova saying good things about Ilinykh/Katsalapov:eek: Maybe this means they are not going to hold back Elena and Nikita at national championships like Weaver/Poje. Dance holds or not İlinykh/Katsalapov's dance looks beautiful and they are deserving national title for this year.

I hope they do too. Being Russian No. 1 for three years does not entitle you to be Russian No. 1's in an Olympic year. Their programs this year are so disappointing and we're not just talking in comparison to I/K. This is a title you earn at a National Championship each year. If I/K win so be it. If they don't just the same. I just have this sneaking suspicion with I/K it will not matter. Come Olympics if they skate better on the day they can beat almost anyone, with the only exception being V/M and D/W, for now :popcorn: They were very young, immature kids when they first burst on to the senior scene and it is just so heart warming to see them begin to develop their potential :biggrin:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
At the GPF, I thought B&S's SD was much better-but then Dmitri fell in the FD, and they finished off the podium-so I think we have to wait to Russian Nationals to settle this question.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Hopefully B&S finishing off the podium at the Grand Prix final and falling again is a huge open door to I&K to take over Russian #1. They are by far the more talented and entertaining team.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I was rooting for B&S for a few seasons until now. I'm tired of crappy programs. A fall in the last 2 competitions. They were probably faster and more powerful than anybody but their content wasn't the toughest. Yet they can't handle the content with all these falls. 80s costumes and makeup. :bang::bang::bang:
 

Barb

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
I love their free dance program :rock:, except the final scream, please don´t hate me but I would loved this program for the Shibs. For me I/K FD program is boring and predictable, the only good thing about their program is the first lift although their SP is really good.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Hopefully B&S finishing off the podium at the Grand Prix final and falling again is a huge open door to I&K to take over Russian #1. They are by far the more talented and entertaining team.

It would be poor leading for I&K, if they would be able to beat B&S only in case when Ekaterina or Dmitri will fall.
More or less talented, even Tarasova (who were mentioned above) keeps saying that talent is 10 percent of success and them you have to work and sacrifice and work and sacrifice.

Lena and Nikita are very entertaining team... they would be even more entertaining if they had time to make a normal exhibition not just putting choreo from free skate with another music together - which persuades me that they really don't care what they are skating about or what music they are skating about - choreo from Ave Maria/Ghost used to such different music and stories like Capricious Horses by Vysotski, Someone Like You by Adele, at least Une Histoire d'Amour by Matthieu is similar to Ghost story a little bit but the rhythm is completely different.
Dancing choreo, difficulty of program, skating skills, deep edges, close holds, timing and keeping the rhythm, high levels, expressing the feeling of the music, variability of dancer is not that entertaining but it is what is dance category about. But Hollywood directors would definitely agree with you! Entertaining on the first place. Dance and music lovers would like to see something more than entertaining only.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
At the GPF, I thought B&S's SD was much better-but then Dmitri fell in the FD, and they finished off the podium-so I think we have to wait to Russian Nationals to settle this question.

Personally I think you are right but I don't undestand a whole problem...it would never came across my mind who else could be number 1 than Bobrova after European Title/World Bronze medal/this year COR win/fourth qualification in row for GPF...but here we go...

After GP part where those two teams didn't meet yet (maybe for a cup of coffee only :) )… the result is...
I&K - fourth place, second place, didn't qualify for GPF
B&S - second place, first place, qualified for GPF - after SD they were even third, because of the fall they were fourth in free dance and finished on fourth place overall...
these results works for B&S...

Watching for mistakes - both teams are fighting with levels, both teams are making mistakes (Lena stumbles, Ekaterina falls and makes Dmitri fall).

Some people deeply wished to see I&K qualify for GPF. If we try to imagine...how about the result? The technical specialist was from Japan, that one who were in NHK Trophy. I quess looking at name it is a lady...a lady who strictly watches for levels and nobody is save if edges/requirements are NOT properly done (lena and Nikita were not the only couple whose levels were downgraded, but some other teams got their high levels, which means that even with that lady it is possible to achieve high levels). If TEB technical specialist excuses not perfect spin position and stumbling in diagonal step sequence, a japanese lady wouldn't forgive like she didn't forgive other teams. We all know that between NHK and TEB there were just few days, Lena and Nikita themself admitted they didn't practise even one full day between those two competitions. So there was no time for correction for getting higher levels, spin and steps were executed exactly the same at both competitions but levels were sudenly higher. In one week they improved in SD and FD about 8 points without practising anything, which proves that every technical specialist is on his own - more kind or less kind, as well as judges marks and points react not only at skaters but they also put more or less point comparing dance team to previous dance teams they saw before (I don't doubt that after Zhiganhina&Gazsi free dance Lena and Nikita looked like aliens to all judges). But in GPF there was that less kind and more strict technical specialist so we can suppose that levels would be lower again...so the marks)

Another interesting moment...Lena and Nikita lost to Cappellini at NHK both in short dance and free dance, the same Cappellini who finished totally last at GPF.
At TEB short dance Lena and Nikita lost to Pechalat who was fifth after short dance at GPF. Pechalat lost to Bobrova at both Cup of China and GFP in short dance.
Comparing free dances looks to be more complicated - Lena won over Pechalat (but before lost free dance to Cappellini), and Pechalat won over Bobrova twice. But if judges would be more carefull and noticed Lena's stumble in step sequence, they would get minus GOE for the diagonal step sequence, if technical specialist would notice problematic posititon in dance spin and Lena's stumble in steps he would put the levels down as well and they would lost to Pechalat. Bobrova lost to Weaver at COR free dance, Weaver lost to Bobrova at GPF free dance.
Bobrova looks to be the best in short dance, Pechalat looks to have the strongest free dance.
I am not wise from this... I still prefer comparing dance teams at one competition because of things mentioning above.
I am curious to see Russian Nationals, I wish all teams to do their best as well as I wish the same to all judges and technical specialist.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
I would definitely not expect I/K to take over number one when they were hammered with 4 level 2's in a SD just a few weeks ago. Putting that number one would be a horrible mistake and why B/S have not lost a SD or FD in Russia since 2010. I/K could absolutely go to the Olympics and get mostly level 1's and 2's.
 
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