Ladies FS - 2013 Rostelecom Cup | Page 19 | Golden Skate

Ladies FS - 2013 Rostelecom Cup

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Then I shall explain further for you:

Pigtails is a style of hair associated with being young, free, and happy. It requires multiple hair ties to achieve the look.

Therefore, for both of those reasons, nobody was ever wearing their hair like this after being taken by Nazis. Julia is skating to Schlinder's List, not Pippy Longstocking.

But they were wearing red coats with sequins?!?!?!

I'm sorry but I find the whole program shamelessly manipulative, so matter how well it is skated.
 

zamboni step

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
Relative to say Gracie Gold she was massively underscored in PCS at Skate Canada. Gold cracked 60 IIRC with a very flawed performance, and she isn't better than Julia in any aspect of PCS other than speed and basics, yet Julia got lower PCS for a clean skate. A farce. So in comparision to Gold she certainly deserved a 63.64 type PCS at Skate Canada. Not here. I agree with Blades that what she got at Skate Canada was closer to what she deserved her.

I disagree with this, if PCS is always to be considered relative eventually it'll rocket higher and higher until it's totally out of control. If you're going to talk relatively though thought they were both overscored compared to Akiko. Gracie deserved mid 6s for everything other than SS and Julia deserved high 6s to low 7s for everything in my opinion. Judges throw out high 7s like they mean nothing.
 

ordinary person

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 6, 2009
I watched some videos even though i don't care much about it, but even satoko here performed better than julia, what a big shame.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
LOL. Please.

She looked young and innocent already. Her packaging in the LP was completely perfect before. The pig tails are crap. Totally distracting to her line and the seriousness of the story. Nobody in concentration camp has the materials to put their hair in pig tails.

Did you really watch the movie? The little girl in the red coat in Schindler's List never made it to a concentration camp. *Warning - scenes of Nazis shooting people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1VL-y9JHuI
She was at Krakow during the Nazi liquidation of the ghetto. And she was wearing a nice red coat albeit smudged. Very likely her parents had already been killed which is why she was wandering alone in the streets during the massacre. The next time you see her she's a corpse on a cart. If you watched the movie you'll recall that wealthy Jews as well as working class Jews were all thrown together at Krakow ghetto. Until the massacre they all mostly worked and survived in the ghetto day to day. Some showed up in furs and jewels. And you don't need much 'material' to put a little girl's hair up in pigtails. And since when does life have to be happy and carefree as far as putting a child's hair up in pigtails? If you watched the film then you might remember another little girl, Danka Dresner - the one who had to hide in the filthy commode of one of the outhouses along with other children in order to save her life. She wore her hair in braided pigtails as did other little girls at Amon Goeth's concentration camp in Poland. You can see it here at the end of the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK1WIPI-hx4

And here is a family at Krakow ghetto circa 1941 - note the little girl with braided hair in pigtails: http://www.museumoffamilyhistory.com/pfh.krakow-baral-ghetto.htm

All that being said - I do agree that the pigtails on Julia broke her line a bit. The simple ponytail she wore before was sufficient. The child in the movie wore here hair loose and it was understandably messy. I don't think that look would be practical, first because hair might whip around and get in the way while doing triples, and second because the messy look didn't work for Leonova when she first tried it with her POC SP. Eventually she tidied up the ponytail.
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Many congrats to MIRAI for a podium finish! :hb:

It's so nice to see her to get her jumps back; when Mirai hits jumps correctly, she jumps straight up in the air then rotates them! She needs to sell the program more to the judges and audience, though.
Hopefully the result here will give her a confidence boost as she is heading into US Nats. :yes: And would love to see her hit 2A-3T right at the 'bang' of James Bond music! Way to go, Mirai! :yay:
 

RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
But they were wearing red coats with sequins?!?!?!

I'm sorry but I find the whole program shamelessly manipulative, so matter how well it is skated.

Doesn't art at its best manipulate? I have been reading a lot resistance and hostility towards Julia ever since SC and frankly I find it revealing. The tone of it all infers that many feel threatened by her. I can understand, she IS A THREAT to the status quo we all had gotten used to these past years. Well, change had to happen and it finally did; we should be glad about the future and the Lady's Figure Skating gravity shift it portends to this next quadrennial; from Japan and S Korea to Russia. If Julia wins the Grand Prix final or even comes close think then how HUGE YuNa's return will mean; "high noon" at the "OK Corral" in Sochi between the whip-fast young upstart and the seasoned gun-slinger.
The script is in the middle of being rewritten; the media will love it and we will too, once the dust settles.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Doesn't art at its best manipulate? I have been reading a lot resistance and hostility towards Julia ever since SC and frankly I find it revealing. The tone of it all infers that many feel threatened by her. I can understand, she IS A THREAT to the status quo we all had gotten used to these past years. Well, change had to happen and it finally did; we should be glad about the future and the Lady's Figure Skating gravity shift it portends to this next quadrennial; from Japan and S Korea to Russia. If Julia wins the Grand Prix final or even comes close think then how HUGE YuNa's return will mean; "high noon" at the "OK Corral" in Sochi between the whip-fast young upstart and the seasoned gun-slinger.
The script is in the middle of being rewritten; the media will love it and we will too, once the dust settles.

The problem is Julia is using the associations with the film to generate emotions. That's what I find manipulative. She is wonderfully talented yes, but she doesn't have enough skill yet to generate the same kind of pathos and emotional response on her own. So all the associations with the film are a kind of shorthand and emotional cheat for me. It's not entirely surprising--she's very young and it takes time to learn HOW to do that kind of interpretation. I've only seen a very very few skaters who could do that at so young an age, the primary one being Kwan. When she won worlds in 96, I am convinced she beat Chen Lu for two reasons: the first being her final triple, but the second the look she gave the judges as she glided by them, a look of classic, tragic doom. And it wasn't mimicry, which is what I feel from Julia.

Skaters often use this kind of associative mimicry to generate an emotional response. Voir did it with Funny Face--down to Scott Moir wearing a duplicate of Fred Astaire's costume. And I felt the same kind of emotional shrug as I do watching Julia's LP.

As far as her being a threat, well I've been a fan long enough to know that talented new skaters will ALWAYS come along to upset the current apple cart. Sports is a metonymy for life that way--we age and lose abilities and someone younger will outshine us. The process is just both highly compressed and sped up in sport.
 

sweetskates1

Medalist
Joined
Feb 5, 2012
Me too!!!!!!!!!!! Please let everything you mention below come true :yay:

Many congrats to MIRAI for a podium finish! :hb:

It's so nice to see her to get her jumps back; when Mirai hits jumps correctly, she jumps straight up in the air then rotates them! She needs to sell the program more to the judges and audience, though.
Hopefully the result here will give her a confidence boost as she is heading into US Nats. :yes: And would love to see her hit 2A-3T right at the 'bang' of James Bond music! Way to go, Mirai! :yay:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
This is true. Wherever it happens though, Russia, Canada, it is bad for the sport, and a big reason the sport is dying. The unfortunate thing is Russians are biased and wont concede the tainted scoring here, especialy B/S's wins; and Canadians are biased and many wont concede Chan's bogus win and some of the high scoring of others on the team (eg- Osmond, Duhamel & Radford).

Not all of them. I've conceded Chan's win at London as bogus and bad for the sport. However as I said, at least when Chan messed up, his PCS actually dropped (sub-90). And his score was much less than a personal best.

However Julia messing up resulted in *higher* PCS (and considerably at that) than Skate Canada, and resulted in a win (let's not forget the 32 points PCs from 28 in her SP, although at least that was clean). She also wasn't called for any of her flutzes either, while others received edge calls, as well as earned 0's on a touched down 2A.

B/S fell in their free dance and got a personal best, so that also says it all.

Chan's was bad (along with the Germans FS and Kostner's SP), but not as bad as the stuff that went down here. Oddly enough it was very similar to last years Worlds where the top 2 ha clean SPs but bombed the FS and still won...
 

RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
The problem is Julia is using the associations with the film to generate emotions. That's what I find manipulative. She is wonderfully talented yes, but she doesn't have enough skill yet to generate the same kind of pathos and emotional response on her own. So all the associations with the film are a kind of shorthand and emotional cheat for me. It's not entirely surprising--she's very young and it takes time to learn HOW to do that kind of interpretation. I've only seen a very very few skaters who could do that at so young an age, the primary one being Kwan. When she won worlds in 96, I am convinced she beat Chen Lu for two reasons: the first being her final triple, but the second the look she gave the judges as she glided by them, a look of classic, tragic doom. And it wasn't mimicry, which is what I feel from Julia.

Skaters often use this kind of associative mimicry to generate an emotional response. Voir did it with Funny Face--down to Scott Moir wearing a duplicate of Fred Astaire's costume. And I felt the same kind of emotional shrug as I do watching Julia's LP.

As far as her being a threat, well I've been a fan long enough to know that talented new skaters will ALWAYS come along to upset the current apple cart. Sports is a metonymy for life that way--we age and lose abilities and someone younger will outshine us. The process is just both highly compressed and sped up in sport.

Well, I never saw the film and so I have no bias. She lights up the ice, that is what I see of her program and her skating. That others CARE to find flaws with her skating and program is their business. The fact is she is making a name for herself right now and serving notice to all other contenders and pretenders that she is the real deal and everyone else on and OFF the ice will just have to deal with it.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Quote Originally Posted by travelbug View Post

So nice to see Mirai do well.
Sad to see after her SP, though, how distracted she seemed by whatever she was doing with her finger.

She had a cut.
She was putting a bandage on it. You can't see in Low Quality video.






Quote Originally Posted by travelbug View Post

At least at the end of the LP she looked semi-pleased with her performance. So odd how distant and detached she and her coach seemed w/ one another as she exited the ice and especially in the K&C, especially after the LP, which both really should have been pleased with! It was like they'd hardly ever seen one another before. Struck me as very odd.
Same after the SP. It's weird... ...
OK, I wasn't seeing things....now I have to wonder if something else is going on we don't know about....some friction between them...perhaps even an un-announced coaching change...this could explain the stress and sadness ....one thing is for sure, she showed determination to not UR. How many of us have sat in the stands and watched her practice perfect triples, only to UR in comp? You go, girl...
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
Well, I never saw the film and so I have no bias. She lights up the ice, that is what I see of her program and her skating. That others CARE to find flaws with her skating and program is their business..

Yes. She certainly lighted up the ice in her first GP.

ref: "The problem is Julia is using the associations with the film to generate emotions. That's what I find manipulative."
Welcome to figure skating. It's about emotion, or at least it is for me....point counters may disagree....if we fault Julia for generating emotion through music choice, then Yu-Na is just as guilty for her free program at Worlds London.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
The problem is Julia is using the associations with the film to generate emotions. That's what I find manipulative. She is wonderfully talented yes, but she doesn't have enough skill yet to generate the same kind of pathos and emotional response on her own. So all the associations with the film are a kind of shorthand and emotional cheat for me. It's not entirely surprising--she's very young and it takes time to learn HOW to do that kind of interpretation. I've only seen a very very few skaters who could do that at so young an age, the primary one being Kwan. When she won worlds in 96, I am convinced she beat Chen Lu for two reasons: the first being her final triple, but the second the look she gave the judges as she glided by them, a look of classic, tragic doom. And it wasn't mimicry, which is what I feel from Julia.

Skaters often use this kind of associative mimicry to generate an emotional response. Voir did it with Funny Face--down to Scott Moir wearing a duplicate of Fred Astaire's costume. And I felt the same kind of emotional shrug as I do watching Julia's LP. ...

...
ref: "The problem is Julia is using the associations with the film to generate emotions. That's what I find manipulative."
Welcome to figure skating. It's about emotion, or at least it is for me....point counters may disagree....if we fault Julia for generating emotion through music choice, then Yu-Na is just as guilty for her free program at Worlds London.

Sorry, have not read the whole thread (and have not seen Lipnitiskaia's program), but can't help saying that I heartily disagree with the comments from WeakAnkles re "mimicry" and "manipulation."
And I agree very much with the response from CoyoteChris.

The associations that WeakAnkles decries as "mimicry" and "manipulation" are what I would call character portrayal.
Meryl Davis wore a costume that "mimics" those worn by other (off-ice) Giselles. Kaitlyn Weaver wore a costume intended to look like a dress seen on the Julie Andrews character in The Sound of Music. Yes, Scott Moir wore a costume that looked like one of Astaire's in Funny Face. And you neglected to say that Tessa Virtue's costume looked like one of Audrey Hepburn's dresses in FF.
I do not feel "manipulated" by any of them. Choosing costumes with recognizable references to enhance character portrayal is perfectly reasonable, IMHO.

I like Kwan just fine, but guess what? She too was portraying characters -- using what you call "mimicry." You apparently perceived her mimicry to be more authentic. Good for her. But it was mimicry all the same.

ETA:
I just watched Lipnitskaia's FS on NBC. Did not feel manipulated for one second.
(And her tidy pigtail braids did not raise my eyebrows one bit. Signaled the innocence of her character without being distracting.)​
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
She did not deserve 63.64 PCS at SC. Come on, now.

This FS was cleaned up a bit more, but with the errors the PCS should have been no higher than 60. 61 was just about right for SC.

An average of 8 in each component mark would be 64 PCS. So, yes, Julia deserved at least 63.64 for her Skate Canada performance.

You saying she deserved 61 at Skate Canada and 60 at Cup of Russia is pretty much the epitome of bad judging with PCS these days. A 1 point difference only when at Cup of Russia she ends way behind the music and made several detracting mistakes, without doing anything better than she did in the Skate Canada performance?
 

zamboni step

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
An average of 8 in each component mark would be 64 PCS. So, yes, Julia deserved at least 63.64 for her Skate Canada performance.

You saying she deserved 61 at Skate Canada and 60 at Cup of Russia is pretty much the epitome of bad judging with PCS these days. A 1 point difference only when at Cup of Russia she ends way behind the music and made several detracting mistakes, without doing anything better than she did in the Skate Canada performance?

Julia deserves 8s in transitions and skating skills? Choreography maybe, interpretation I wouldn't personally but that's a matter of opinion to a certain extent and performance is the same. But her transitions and skating skills are probably not worthy of mid 7s.
 

travelbug

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
OK, I wasn't seeing things....now I have to wonder if something else is going on we don't know about....some friction between them...perhaps even an un-announced coaching change...this could explain the stress and sadness ....one thing is for sure, she showed determination to not UR. How many of us have sat in the stands and watched her practice perfect triples, only to UR in comp? You go, girl...

I was wondering if seeing it on TV and seeing beyond where it cut off on the feed I might feel differently.

But now that I'm watching it on NBC, it almost seems worse to me than it did yesterday.

No wonder Mirai's utterly expressionless - her coach is as blank faced! With her coach so seemingly 'blah' about everything, she may not be even paying attention to Mirai not emoting at all while performing. Seriously strange.

It was nice to hear JW and TL seeming to be very pleased for Mirai's good skate (though obviously her lack of expression was mentioned by them also). I wish they'd have touched on the coach thing...surely they noticed that, too...
 

elif

Medalist
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Julia deserves 8s in transitions and skating skills? Choreography maybe, interpretation I wouldn't personally but that's a matter of opinion to a certain extent and performance is the same. But her transitions and skating skills are probably not worthy of mid 7s.

:eek:

This is the only component (maybe choreography too) where she should got more points than Kostner. :eek:


http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf
Transitions/Linking Footwork & Movement

Definition:

The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements, and holds that link all elements. In
singles, pairs, and synchronize skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements.


Criteria:
Variety
Difficulty
Intricacy
Quality (including unison in Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
Balance of workload between partners (Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
Variety of Dance holds (not excessive side by side and hand in hand – Ice Dancing)

Transitions can be short or long, including the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the
music. (Minimum use of cross-cuts)
 

zamboni step

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 14, 2013
:eek:

This is the only component (maybe choreography too) where she should got more points than Kostner. :eek:

She should definitely get higher choreography marks than Kostner. And I never said relative to Kostner, I said in general her transitions are only worthy of low 7s. Kostner's are also worthy of something in that range but thanks to the usual reluctance of the judges to show a true diversity of the range of marks in PCS segments Carolina gets high TR and CH marks anyway.
 

Li'Kitsu

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
elif said:
This is the only component (maybe choreography too) where she should got more points than Kostner.

So everyone who has better TR than Kostner should at least get 8's. I'm pretty sure that'snot what the rule book says.

Anyway, Julia getting an average of 8 in her PCS is way too high. Her CH is good and the IN improved at lot since last year, but I'm not sure it's that good already. And her SS are definitly nowhere near an 8.
 
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