Ladies FS - 2013 Rostelecom Cup

pangtongfan · Nov 24, 2013

Judges don't differentiate between various components though. They never have. So it ends up being more about the overall impression of the program. I even read somewhere they are remprimanded if their various compnents scores varies too much in order, which is ridiculous. They might as well just have a presentation mark like they used to if that is how they are going to approach it.

zamboni step · Nov 24, 2013

Li'Kitsu said:
So everyone who has better TR than Kostner should at least get 8's. I'm pretty sure that'snot what the rule book says.

Anyway, Julia getting an average of 8 in her PCS is way too high. Her CH is good and the IN improved at lot since last year, but I'm not sure it's that good already. And her SS are definitly nowhere near an 8.

Agreed, choreography deserves a mid to high 7 in the long program. Skating skills maybe a 7 at best, transitions 7, just because her transitions are better than someone with not many transitions doesn't mean she's worthy of 8s, if that's true than I'm waiting for Kaetlyn Osmond's 10 in TR.

elif · Nov 24, 2013

zamboni step said:
She should definitely get higher choreography marks than Kostner. And I never said relative to Kostner, I said in general her transitions are only worthy of low 7s. Kostner's are also worthy of something in that range but thanks to the usual reluctance of the judges to show a true diversity of the range of marks in PCS segments Carolina gets high TR and CH marks anyway.

I don't remember where Julia didn't link her elements.:scratch: ISU rules are saying entrances and exits of jumps counting too. She always entering her jumps with footwork or other things because of GOE. Of course last year she only used her flexibility for transitions but this year she changed this. I think she deserves 8s. Her transitions are not Chan's quality but she has them. She is hardly doing any crossovers.

zamboni step · Nov 24, 2013

elif said:
I don't remember where Julia didn't link her elements.:scratch: ISU rules are saying entrances and exits of jumps counting too. She always entering her jumps with footwork or other things because of GOE. Of course last year she only used her flexibility for transitions but this year she changed this. I think she deserves 8s. Her transitions are not Chan's quality but she has them. She is hardly doing any crossovers.

There quite a few crossovers in that program, also the only jumps with any form of a truly difficult entrance are the lutz, the loop and the salchow. Two one or two choctaws are NOT difficult to do into a flip or lutz. She doesn't telegraph but that's about it, they do work with the music though. Kanako Murakami and Satoko Miyahara are more worthy of 8s in TR than Julia, and neither of them were anywhere near it.

mhu714 · Nov 24, 2013

I don't post much here like I used to yrs ago but I couldn't contain myself after watching the NBC coverage of the ladies Cup of Russia: just how poorly does Kostner have to skate to get anything less than great PCS? Isn't there EVER any correlation to poor technical skating? I mean she barely hit any element (at least jumping) well. Yeah, she's got speed, she's elegant, so what? I'm truly tired of skaters in general being held up this way. Julia L was also held up to a ridiculous degree in IMHO. Is there even any reason to have an Olympic competition? Why not just say now that the podium is a contest only for Asada, Kim, Kostner and Lipnitskaia? I guess Ashley W might be in the mix but she doesn't seem to get held up as much as the others.

Li'Kitsu · Nov 24, 2013

zamboni step said:
Kanako Murakami and Satoko Miyahara are more worthy of 8s in TR than Julia, and neither of them were anywhere near it.

So true. I'd personally rate both of them above Julia too in SS and CH, and probably in PE too, and Kanako also deserves higher IN. Of course this comparison is a little off, as both these girls were underscored like crazy here.

pangtongfan said:
Judges don't differentiate between various components though.

That's true. Usually, the deciding factor seemed to be a mixture of reputation and SS though. Still, for me, Julias overall performance doesn't justify breaking into the 8's, especially as the ladies aren't receiving the higher marks as often as skaters in the other disciplines do.

elif · Nov 24, 2013

zamboni step said:
There quite a few crossovers in that program, also the only jumps with any form of a truly difficult entrance are the lutz, the loop and the salchow. Two one or two choctaws are NOT difficult to do into a flip or lutz. She doesn't telegraph but that's about it, they do work with the music though. Kanako Murakami and Satoko Miyahara are more worthy of 8s in TR than Julia, and neither of them were anywhere near it.

We can't compare Kostner to Julia (for marks) but we can If there is a enough skater who has transitions anywhere near Julia. :rolleye:

Good

I'm glad you only found choctaws for mistake. :laugh:

(As a ice dance fan somehow I thought this movement is difficult:scratch

You can judge her harsly of course. But for me her programs are full of transitions. Also transitions working well with music. She is not only doing leg splits. She is doing a lot of footwork and some other movements going with music. My favorite is entrance of the loop (I'm not sure which jump) where she did a little jump. That was beautiful and fitting the music very well. This program is very good. I hope some other girls can get Ilia Averbukh as a choreographer.

zamboni step · Nov 24, 2013

Li'Kitsu said:
So true. I'd personally rate both of them above Julia too in SS and CH, and probably in PE too, and Kanako also deserves higher IN. Of course this comparison is a little off, as both these girls were underscored like crazy here.

Satoko had better SS, TR and IN than Julia and Kanako had better everything than Julia. Even for someone skating first she was shockingly bit** slapped in PCS especially considering her reputation and how clean her program was. Satoko is always under-marked, not once has she been over-marked.

Blades of Passion · Nov 24, 2013

zamboni step said:
There quite a few crossovers in that program, also the only jumps with any form of a truly difficult entrance are the lutz, the loop and the salchow. Two one or two choctaws are NOT difficult to do into a flip or lutz. She doesn't telegraph but that's about it, they do work with the music though. Kanako Murakami and Satoko Miyahara are more worthy of 8s in TR than Julia, and neither of them were anywhere near it.

There are 21 crossovers in the entire program and she never does more than 2 in a row, with exception to building up speed towards the end of the program before the ChSq, where she does 3 crossovers. She has good speed and flow across the ice, so that's VERY impressive. Low 8's are deserved for skating skills. Transitions are perhaps slightly lower, but she always does a step/turn directly into every jump and has other steps/turns leading up to the jumps, and the exits are good for the most part as well, so I don't believe anything less than 7.75 on that mark would be fair for the Skate Canada performance.

Murakami and Miyahara are definitely not worthy of higher Transitions scores. That's the weakest part of Murakami's skating. And I'm saying this as someone who thought Murakami deserved 2nd place at Worlds last year. I also thought Miyahara deserved a higher placement at NHK this year (3rd), even though my underrotation calls for her are harsher than what she actually received.

zamboni step · Nov 24, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
There are 21 crossovers in the entire program and she never does more than 2 in a row, with exception to building up speed towards the end of the program before the ChSq, where she does 3 crossovers. She has good speed and flow across the ice, so that's VERY impressive. Low 8's are deserved for skating skills. Transitions are perhaps slightly lower, but she always does a step/turn directly into every jump and has other steps/turns leading up to the jumps, and the exits are good for the most part as well, so I don't believe anything less than 7.75 on that mark would be fair for the Skate Canada performance.

Murakami and Miyahara are definitely not worthy of higher Transitions scores. That's the weakest part of Murakami's skating. And I'm saying this as someone who thought Murakami deserved 2nd place at Worlds last year. I also thought Miyahara deserved a higher placement at NHK this year (3rd), even though my underrotation calls for her are harsher than what she actually received.

Murakami's worked so well with the music that the telegraphing really doesn't matter, there was quite a few, yes they are the weakest part of her skating but they're still very impressive and aren't clearly there just to tick the TR box, they're there for choreographic purposes too. Julia may have good speed but her edges are a little shallow and she doesn't really use them to build up more speed, Murakami has better skating skills and she only deserves low 8s. 21 crossovers is good but is it really worthy of 8s when you have skaters like Kaetlyn Osmond and Gracie Gold receiving lower than 8s when theirs are also superior. Maybe this is me in desperate need of more sleep rather than binge watching skating with an industrial strength cleaning product at the ready to wipe it from my brain but I just don't see Lipnitskaya's 8 worthy transitions.

Blades of Passion · Nov 24, 2013

zamboni step said:
Murakami's worked so well with the music that the telegraphing really doesn't matter.

You're talking about two separate things now. It's possible to have amazing choreography and/or interpretation but not a high level of transitions. Murakami's transitions in her LP were actually quite good, but definitely lower than Lipnitskaya. She doesn't do anything as difficult as Lipnitskaya's full 180 spiral leading up to a jump and she doesn't ever do steps or turns directly into the jumps, which is something Lipnitskaya has on all of them, even if they are simple.

zamboni step · Nov 24, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
You're talking about two separate things now. It's possible to have amazing choreography and/or interpretation but not a high level of transitions. Murakami's transitions in her LP were actually quite good, but definitely lower than Lipnitskaya. She doesn't do anything as difficult as Lipnitskaya's full 180 spiral leading up to a jump and she doesn't ever do steps or turns directly into the jumps, which is something Lipnitskaya has on all of them, even if they are simple.

Actually relevance to the music is a criteria of the transition mark, whilst they don't lead directly into the jump (although the ones into the 2A do), they are difficult enough and I guess it becomes a matter of which one is more important to you personally in transitions. I would say their relevance to the music holds far more weight than their proximity to the jumps, although that could be me being a crazed, biased fan-boy.

Blades of Passion · Nov 24, 2013

Relevance to the music is the least important thing about judging transitions, kind of like judging the quality of a jump. Yeah, if it goes with the music really well that's a bonus, and if it's abhorrently misplaced to the music that's a negative, but in the end these things are much more about the quantity, difficulty, variation, and quality of the movements themselves.

That's exactly why we should often see the components drastically varying from mark to mark. But they rarely ever do.

zamboni step · Nov 24, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
That's exactly why we should often see the components drastically varying from mark to mark. But they rarely ever do.

THIS

Carolina was bested in choreography by; Julia, Mirai, Satoko, Kanako, Agnes and hell, maybe even Elizaveta....that program is so empty and relies on Kostner's performance ability to make it look good. Another half-hearted recyclable program from Lori Nichol, it shouldn't be a surprise but usually her programs for Kostner are quite good.

Poodlepal · Nov 24, 2013

mhu714 said:
I don't post much here like I used to yrs ago but I couldn't contain myself after watching the NBC coverage of the ladies Cup of Russia: just how poorly does Kostner have to skate to get anything less than great PCS? Isn't there EVER any correlation to poor technical skating? I mean she barely hit any element (at least jumping) well. Yeah, she's got speed, she's elegant, so what? I'm truly tired of skaters in general being held up this way. Julia L was also held up to a ridiculous degree in IMHO. Is there even any reason to have an Olympic competition? Why not just say now that the podium is a contest only for Asada, Kim, Kostner and Lipnitskaia? I guess Ashley W might be in the mix but she doesn't seem to get held up as much as the others.

I agree with you 100%. It seems like the results are hardly based on what the skater did on that particular day but on the consensus of their "skating skills" and "transitions" which, of course, don't vary as much between competitions. I mean, if someone's program has a lot of transitions in Skate Canada, won't they be just as good in Cup of Russia? It's hitting the jumps that is the big variable here.

They found a way to use the new system for political judging or favorite judging in just a few years. You'd never see an upset like Sarah Hughes or Paul Wylie any more.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 24, 2013

Not necessarily true. Denis Ten upset a lot of skaters at Worlds. Sure they bombed but the judges could have easily held him back on PCS, and in fact did the opposite. There have been other examples like Takahashi/Tran where solid skaters were given credit and podium finishes.

Amei · Nov 24, 2013

For everyone complaining about Lipnitskaia's pigtails, let's recap: her costumes cover everything, are age appropriate and aren't made of 'illusion fabric'- several of the other big name skaters: wear negligees on the ice and fashion their skating costumes to look like diapers- pigtails = not a big deal

Poodlepal · Nov 25, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Not necessarily true. Denis Ten upset a lot of skaters at Worlds. Sure they bombed but the judges could have easily held him back on PCS, and in fact did the opposite. There have been other examples like Takahashi/Tran where solid skaters were given credit and podium finishes.

Hope you're right. However, there were many people there who thought he should have won at least the long program.

I think Julia is very cute and age appropriate, and she projects a personality that most of the others don't. She's not cookie cutter. I hope she doesn't bland out as she tries to have a more "mature" style as Mirai and many other did.

Layfan · Nov 25, 2013

Blades of Passion said:
Then I shall explain further for you:

Pigtails is a style of hair associated with being young, free, and happy. It requires multiple hair ties to achieve the look.

Therefore, for both of those reasons, nobody was ever wearing their hair like this after being taken by Nazis. Julia is skating to Schlinder's List, not Pippy Longstocking.

First of all, I'm deeply impressed by Lipnitskaia this season, whether or not she was overscored in her LP at COR. She's a phenom and it's truly exhilarating to watch her skate. I also think that she has the makings of style, even if it's not quite there.

But this program feels like a punch in the gut and not in a good way. The little girl in the red coat in Schindler's list?

As soon as the music turns on I see her in her red costume I feel overwhelmed by the horror that the image evokes. Julia certainly tries to live up to the melancholy music but there is simply no way for her give a performance that does any kind of justice to the scale of the catastrophic tragedy that her music and costume choice evokes. The pig tails - it's a minor point and they actually look cute on her - but it's symptomatic of the misstep her choreographers made here.

mirai4life · Nov 25, 2013

I love Julia's choice of music and custom sooooo much!!!!!

Ladies FS - 2013 Rostelecom Cup

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

zamboni step

elif

zamboni step

mhu714

Li'Kitsu

elif

zamboni step

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

zamboni step

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

zamboni step

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

zamboni step

Poodlepal

CanadianSkaterGuy

Amei

Poodlepal

Layfan

mirai4life

1Lo <

Similar threads

Connect with us