State of the U.S. Men: Post-GP season | Page 2 | Golden Skate

State of the U.S. Men: Post-GP season

centerpt1

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 27, 2008
Adam- has momentum, solid coaching, good programs and youth (or at least no known current injuries). Keeps himself out of hot water/political issues.
Max- all he needs is a re-work to remove some of the over-his-head choreo, and put the focus back on his jumps. I don't see him as a Mroz type. There's a great ex hockey player (so macho, you know) story.
Jason- No political downside, has a lot of competition savvy, has youth and health on his side-even with no quad. A great on the way up story line.
Jeremy- could surprise and be on the podium, but struggling this season. Big question- can he train enough to get up on his quad, considering his ongoing back issues? Plus you can bet he sunk his political boat with his interior decorator comments.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Definitely Adam will win, barring an injury, and hopefully he'll do respectably at the Olympics. I think Jeremy will come in 2nd--he always does well at Nationals, and if he skates well, he's the only person the judges would consider for a medal. Jason Brown will continue at 4CC/junior competitions and may be the hope for the future. He is cute. I like Max, but I'm worried he's on the Brandon Mroz path--one year he lands the quad and wins medals, then never quite does it again.

I don't see Jason Brown (or Joshua Farris, for that matter) going back to junior worlds. Jason has gone three times, Joshua twice. I'm hoping both will get top 5 so they can go to 4CC, if neither of them get to the top two for Worlds/Olympics. The only reason USFSA will send them to junior worlds if they perceive they are needed to retain the full amount of JGP spots. Nathan Chen, barring injury, should be able to do that quite easily. But given the fact they didn't even use all the spots this year, I'm not sure how motivated USFSA would be to get full spots. Once Jason and Josh moved up to seniors, there's been a bit of a brain drain in the junior men, again aside from Nathan Chen. Shotoro Omori looked good but then he got injured. Vincent Zhou and Tomoki Hiwatashi (2013 Novice champ) also are injured. Jordan Moeller (who is Jason Brown's training mate) did well enough to get two events, but did not medal at either one. The rest of the junior men ranked so poorly in their first event the federation opted to forgo spots rather than give them another event.

I have a feeling that the junior world entries will all come from the junior results. Shotoro was the only one in juniors internationally planning to move up to seniors nationally, but he WD from sectionals so he won't be there.

I think Max is better than Brandon, actually, namely lots of speed and decent skating skills.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
... I think Jeremy will come in 2nd--he always does well at Nationals, and if he skates well, he's the only person the judges would consider for a medal. ...

Depends on what you mean by "always" and by "well."
Over the last five years, Abbott has placed fourth (once), third (once), and first (three times) at Nats.
He has missed the world team twice -- although top four is nothing to sneeze at.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I can't see Jason or Joshua going back to junior worlds.. Especially not Joshua, who has already won it. Besides, i doubt either of them would even have a junior-length version of their LPs!

Nationals:

1 Max
2 Joshua
3 Jason
4 Adam
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Is this video new? I just noticed it on the NBC site, and it has no date. Features American men Aaron, Miner, Lysacek.

Mastering the quad
One jump, four rotations, land it on a quarter inch blade of steel: "The Quad" is the gold standard in men's figure skating. Top Americans break down the jump.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/mastering-quad (3:09 in length)​
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Sounds interesting but... sigh... "This content is currently unavailable." I'm guessing geoblocked? I don't suppose there's a tanscript of it anywhere?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I didn't see a transcript on the site. It mostly boiled down to The Quad is Hard. Max Aaron, Evan Lysacek & Ross Miner were talking. They discussed the g-forces that a skater undergoes doing a quad, and compared the force on the skater at landing as being about the same as if he landed with a refrigerator on his back.
 

ice coverage

avatar credit: @miyan5605
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
... Mastering the quad
One jump, four rotations, land it on a quarter inch blade of steel: "The Quad" is the gold standard in men's figure skating. Top Americans break down the jump.
http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/mastering-quad (3:09 in length)​

Sounds interesting but... sigh... "This content is currently unavailable." I'm guessing geoblocked? I don't suppose there's a tanscript of it anywhere?

I didn't see a transcript on the site. It mostly boiled down to The Quad is Hard. Max Aaron, Evan Lysacek & Ross Miner were talking. They discussed the g-forces that a skater undergoes doing a quad, and compared the force on the skater at landing as being about the same as if he landed with a refrigerator on his back.

A few other bits that stuck in my head:
- Miner noted that the quad is a mental as well as physical challenge.
- He said that learning a new jump could entail falling thirty times per session -- multiplied by three sessions per day. :eek:
- Aaron added that it's a hard fall, and made a hockey analogy to taking a hit from a big guy. "Knocks the wind out of you."​

As an aside, I was very pleased for Miner :) that the video featured him as prominently as Aaron (who remains my main man :)) and Lysacek.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I'm hoping Ross will recover from his injuries and have 2 good skates at Nationals.
 

MFarone

Final Flight
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Aug 20, 2003
Country
United-States
I'm hoping Ross will recover from his injuries and have 2 good skates at Nationals.

I hope so also! I normally like the more lyrical skaters like Jeremy and Jason, but for some reason I also really like Ross. He seems so hardworking and not a headcase. He's gone to Tom Dickson for choreography (last season) and seems to be working on being more expressive. Now, if he could find his 3A (which seems to be missing) and at least rotate the quad, he would be in good shape!
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I hope so also! I normally like the more lyrical skaters like Jeremy and Jason, but for some reason I also really like Ross. He seems so hardworking and not a headcase. He's gone to Tom Dickson for choreography (last season) and seems to be working on being more expressive. Now, if he could find his 3A (which seems to be missing) and at least rotate the quad, he would be in good shape!

I like Ross a lot too. He has some great basics that tend to be downplayed. And I really appreciate his efforts to improve his choreography and expression.

And spekaing of the quad :

Nick McCarvel
‏@NickMcCarvel
Spoke w Jason Brown (@jasonbskates). RE quad: "Honestly it's very close. Working on it daily. We’re not putting it in until it’s consistent"
9:23 AM - 27 Nov 13

I wonder how close he is...

Nick also tweeted that he is working on a feature on Jason that will be published sometime next week.
 

LRK

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 13, 2012
Thanks Doris and golden411 for your replies! I was reminded of this article that I read a while back:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120320&content_id=27433896&vkey=ice_news

and really enjoyed. I must confess I find quads fascinating. :)

Mrs P - It wouldn't surprise me if it indeed were very close. One thing that my husband especially remarked upon re Jason (after having seen his Riverdance) is his sense of balance. That no matter how he twists and turns his body is so remarkably balanced. And I agree. :) I think that would help immensely. I thought so to about the video of Jason training the quad that someone posted - was it you, perhaps? It wasn't perfect, but he saved it. I think he could very well become one of those few skaters who could "save" landing a dodgy quad. (See article above.)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Thanks Doris and golden411 for your replies! I was reminded of this article that I read a while back:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120320&content_id=27433896&vkey=ice_news

and really enjoyed. I must confess I find quads fascinating. :)

Mrs P - It wouldn't surprise me if it indeed were very close. One thing that my husband especially remarked upon re Jason (after having seen his Riverdance) is his sense of balance. That no matter how he twists and turns his body is so remarkably balanced. And I agree. :) I think that would help immensely. I thought so to about the video of Jason training the quad that someone posted - was it you, perhaps? It wasn't perfect, but he saved it. I think he could very well become one of those few skaters who could "save" landing a dodgy quad. (See article above.)


What comes to mind is this video of his 3Z-3T from 2012 Nationals SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2H-dV6aww4#t=02m15s
Johnny Weir notes that his 3Z landing was a bit iffy, but yet was able to get deep in his knees to get the landing and pull off the 3T at the end.

The balance you speak of probably explains why he doesn't fall a whole lot. He didn't fall once at any of his international competitions last season (though fell three times over two segments at U.S. Nationals last year :eek: Hope it doesn't happen this year. Two of those falls were with the 3A, so I'm hoping we'll see fewer, well ideally none, this year).
 

sigrid

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
The only thing kind of worrying about Adam is that he starting to get on (24?) and does not have a lot of years left
I have a question about this. It's true that Adam is 24 now, but it's also true that Adam started skating later than most male skaters (he started when he was 10 IIRC) Do you think that those skaters who start skating later, and have less "skating years" in their bodies can skate until later too? I've always wondered about this
 

lcd

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
I have a question about this. It's true that Adam is 24 now, but it's also true that Adam started skating later than most male skaters (he started when he was 10 IIRC) Do you think that those skaters who start skating later, and have less "skating years" in their bodies can skate until later too? I've always wondered about this

Would be surprised if there was a universal answer to this. Would seem highly dependent upon SO many very individualized variables that it would be difficult to draw generalizations.

I frankly think a more relevant factor is whether someone in their mid20s and beyond can continue to afford participation/financing themselves in the sport.
 

MFarone

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Country
United-States
I have a question about this. It's true that Adam is 24 now, but it's also true that Adam started skating later than most male skaters (he started when he was 10 IIRC) Do you think that those skaters who start skating later, and have less "skating years" in their bodies can skate until later too? I've always wondered about this

I also think this would be difficult to predict. Johnny Weir is 29 and started skating at 12. It seems like Johnny wore out physically by about 27....on the other hand Plushenko (with numerous surgeries) is still going like the energizer bunny!
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
I guess I don't agree that Plush is still going like the energizer bunny. It would appear to all accounts that he has some skates left in him but he's planning when and where to use them. I picture him held together with bubble gum and toothpicks and alot of heart. His desire to compete is stronger possibly than his body is willing to allow. And this, of course, all remains to be seen. I don't think Johnny quit necessarily for any reason other than his life had moved in different directions and he couldn't train properly to continue competing. But Icd called it - there are too many factors to give a general answer to this question. Alot depends on native ability, body type, conditioning, training, probably even eating properly and getting enough sleep. Definitely finances are a factor unless the skater is "born to the manor!" But looking at Adam, he shows no signs of slowing down and quite the contrary - looks stronger than ever!

I just think after skating and competing and training for umpty-two years that a person's desire changes. Only a few have the tenacity to stick in there - or, they have nothing else in their lives to fall back on.
 

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
So now that the Grand Prix series is over, time to look back and give lots of data and analysis.

Score tracker (Top 5 in each category gets points: 15/13/11/9/7; See breakdown of scores below)
Jason: 127
Adam: 115
Jeremy: 77
Max: 55
Richard: 18


Average competition score (includes Senior B appearances)
Adam Rippon: 237.48 (Skate America, NHK Trophy)
Jason Brown: 234.18 (Nebelhorn, Skate America, Trophee Eric Bompard)
Max Aaron: 233.64 (U.S. International Classic, Skate America, NHK Trophy)
Jeremy Abbott: 226.68 (Skate Canada, NHK Trophy)
Richard Dornbush: 213.58 (Finlandia Trophy, Cup of China, Rostelecom Cup)
Joshua Farris: 211.64 (U.S. International Classic, Skate Canada)
Ross Miner: 203.88 (Ondrej Nepala Trophy, Skate Canada)

Quad attempts during the GP: Success = No UR, no fall, no negative GOE below -1

Max Aaron: 4S (2/6); 4T (0/2)
Jeremy Abbott: 4T (1/3)
Adam Rippon: 4Z (0/2) 4T (0/2)
Joshua Farris: 4T (0/2)
Ross Miner: 4S (0/2)
Richard Dornbush: 4T (0/1); 4S (0/4)

GP Placements
Adam Rippon: 2nd (Skate America) + 4th (NHK Trophy)
Jason Brown: 3rd (Trophee Eric Bompard) + 5th (Skate America)
Jeremy Abbott: 3rd (NHK Trophy) + 6th (Skate Canada)
Max Aaron: 3rd (Skate America) + 7th ( NHK Trophy)
Richard Dornbush: 5th (Cup of China) + 5th (Rostelecom Cup)
Joshua Farris: 5th (Skate Canada)
Ross Miner: 9th (Skate Canada)

Mrs. P, wow. But can I ask: what determines how you factor each of these things into your scores? And more to the point, why do any but the first matter? Number of quads, for example, matters only insofar as it affects the total score. So it shouldn't be counted twice. Similarly, the placement at each event depends on the competition; only the score matters (if we can assume -- I hope we can -- that judging has some reliable level of objectivity from one competition to the next).

Anyway, I'm hoping Jeremy Abbott will make the Olympic team. I have a soft spot, it seems, for the veterans of the DSC. I also think he is one of the few skaters (and not just from the US) of the contemporary era about whom one could say that he is artistic (i.e., not just good at program components).

Among the rest, there are several other men who are worthy of the spot (amongst each other), but it would melt my heart if Jason Brown got it.
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Mrs. P, wow. But can I ask: what determines how you factor each of these things into your scores? And more to the point, why do any but the first matter? Number of quads, for example, matters only insofar as it affects the total score. So it shouldn't be counted twice. Similarly, the placement at each event depends on the competition; only the score matters (if we can assume -- I hope we can -- that judging has some reliable level of objectivity from one competition to the next).

Anyway, I'm hoping Jeremy Abbott will make the Olympic team. I have a soft spot, it seems, for the veterans of the DSC. I also think he is one of the few skaters (and not just from the US) of the contemporary era about whom one could say that he is artistic (i.e., not just good at program components).

Among the rest, there are several other men who are worthy of the spot (amongst each other), but it would melt my heart if Jason Brown got it.

To be clear the scoretracker only accounts for GP scores. Basically I ranked the total GP score, GP SP, GP SP TES, GP SP PCS, GP FS, GP FS TES, GP FS PCS. The top five in each of those categories got points (15/13/11/9/7; similar to GP point calculation).

I broke out the TES/PCS SP/FS because you can clearly see some nuances that factor into the discussion. For example, Jason is quite strong in the SP; but Max can score big in the FS due to his high TES.

The quad calculations and score averages are strictly for additional data points and did not factor into the the score tracker.
 

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
To be clear the scoretracker only accounts for GP scores. Basically I ranked the total GP score, GP SP, GP SP TES, GP SP PCS, GP FS, GP FS TES, GP FS PCS. The top five in each of those categories got points (15/13/11/9/7; similar to GP point calculation).

I broke out the TES/PCS SP/FS because you can clearly see some nuances that factor into the discussion. For example, Jason is quite strong in the SP; but Max can score big in the FS due to his high TES.

The quad calculations and score averages are strictly for additional data points and did not factor into the the score tracker.

Ah. Thanks! Thinking some more now...
 
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