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Thread: Judging of Lifts in Ice Dance at CoR

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Judging of Lifts in Ice Dance at CoR

    Are we seeing a change in how tightly rules are applied in lifts? There certainly were a lot of lift downgrades at CoR. When I looked at most of them several times, I could see where a question could be raised, but for some, I'm still a bit skeptical, particularly in the SD. In any case, here's a compendium of the downgraded lifts. In the next post, I'll do a quick recap of the criteria of levels for lifts for anyone that wants to have some technical data to support their opinion of the calls.

    Cup of Russia
    Free Dance


    Weaver & Poje 3rd Element RoLi3-
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...Bzz3x-Ww#t=143
    They are doing a one-armed rotational lift. To receive credit for level 3, they must have both completed 3 rotations. To fail to receive level 4, they must not have received credit for their One Hand/Arm Extra Enhancement, which in this case, Andrew is trying for the up & down motion- probably not enough of it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsEBzz3x-Ww#t=
    and/or the lifting partner significantly changes the level of his skating legs (knees) with a continuous motion
    Chock & Bates 2nd half of combo lift (element 1) SlL4+RoLi3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...DICrfERsU#t=87
    The only way this call makes sense is if Evan stopped and restarted rotating, and so they lost a level on the rotational part of the combination lift. Why? Since they received a Level 4 for the Straight Line lift, they got credit for a Difficult entry. Since they got Level 3 for the rotational lift, they must have all the requirement for level 3. In a combo lift, if you have credit for a difficult entry to the first part of the lift, it applies to the second part. Consequently, they have all the requirements for SlLi4+RoLi4. The only ways the second lift can be level 3 is if they were penalized for Evan stopping and restarting rotating while Madison is in the difficult pose, or if Madison touched down. Clearly Madison didn't touch down.

    Gilles & Poirier 7th element RoLi3 .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...sgDnpXek#t=199
    They are doing a One Hand/Arm Rotational Lift. Their extra enhancement is that Paul is going on one foot during the lift. He probably does not do a whole rotation on one foot, and so failed to meet the requirement.

    Papadakis & Cizeron 5th element second half of combo lift SlLi4+RoLi2;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...upuC2i7Y#t=234
    To qualify for Level 3, Gabriella must do 4 full rotations in a haircutter (with her skate near to her head) It appears she took a bit long getting into the position, and so did not do 4 full rotations in it.
    7th element CuLi3
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...upuC2i7Y#t=282
    It is a change of position curved lift. To obtain credit for the change of position, Guillaume must be in the difficult position (a crouch), while Gabriella is changing position. Since they received credit for level 3, both Guillaume's crouch & Gabriella's change of position have been given credit. They either did not receive credit for a difficult entry, or had a loss of control or touchdown, for which they were penalized a level. I don't see the loss of control or Gabriella touching the ice with her hand, so I think they did not find her jump into the lift as difficult.
    The lift was performed the same way at TEB last week, when they did receive credit for it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...nJRy1mz4#t=270


    None of the 3 Russian teams nor the Ukrainian team received a downgraded lifts in the Free Dance.

    Short Dance

    Weaver & Poje element 5 CuLi2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5Q2dwuxA#t=208
    This is a case where they received credit from the caller, but the points disappeared from the score tracker after voting.
    Either Andrew did not get credit for his difficult pose (spread eagle) or Kaitlyn did not get credit for her change of pose. This lift got credit in this form at Skate Canada, but I can see why it might not. Kaitlyn starts changing pose before Andrew is in the spread eagle. Now she does get two sort of distinct poses after he is in the crouched spread eagle, but it's open to misinterpretation, because the 2 poses are not "snap shot" clear. Even if there is a lot of transitioning between the 2 poses, when you get to the final pose, it must be different from the beginning pose -that is both poses cannot be just Kaitlyn sitting on Andrew's knee.\

    Here's the lift at Skate Canada, for which they received credit
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...dKP5sYOY#t=199

    Chock & Bates element 5 RoLi1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...swcusTIg#t=187
    They are doing a change of position rotational lift.
    To lose credit all the way to level 1, they must have failed to get credit for the change of position. This can happen if Evan stops rotation during the change of position. From this angle, I am not seeing the hesitation in rotation. Furthermore, they got credit initially, but three points disappeared from their tech score on the tracker during review, so clearly the panel had a disagreement.

    Papadakis & Cizeron element 5 SLi2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...-2VM_j9w#t=203
    They either did not get credit for his crouched spread eagle or her change of position. While a rather wild lift, it's not clear at all what they were penalized for. Perhaps they lost credit because he shifted rather a bit during his spread eagle?

    The 3 Russian teams, the Ukrainians, and Gilles and Poirier, did not incur a lift downgrade in the short dance.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-24-2013 at 07:41 AM.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Tech Crib Sheet for Looking at Lifts


    All lifts are Designed as Level 4. The difference in levels is how they are Executed.

    After the requirements for a level are met, there are also deductions for various rule violations, so a team may meet requirements for level 4, but with a deduction, get level 3 or less.

    Before we start to consider deductions:

    :NON ROTATIONAL LIFTS

    A Level 1 Curved, Stationary or Straight Line Lift is one where neither partner got credit for a Difficult position and the Lifted partner did not get credit for a change of position.

    A Level 2 Curved, Stationary or Straight Line Lift is one where one partner or the other got credit, but the other did not.

    A Level 3 Curved, Stationary, or Straight Line Lift is one where both partners got credit.

    A Level 4 Curved, Stationary or Straight Line Lift is a Level 3 lift with a Difficult or Creative Entrance.


    ROTATIONAL LIFTS

    A Level 1 Rotational Lift has each partner completing at least 3 rotations.

    A Level 2 Rotational Lift has either: of three situations:
    The lifting partner rotates at least four times, and the lifted partner holds a difficult pose for at least 3 rotations.

    Or

    The Lifting partner rotates at least four times, and the Lifted partner executes a change of pose and rotates at least 3 times\

    Or the Lifting partner does a one hand/one arm lift and rotates at least 2 times.

    A Level 3 Rotational Lift has either: of three situations:
    The lifting partner rotates at least five times, and the lifted partner holds a difficult pose for at least 4 rotations.

    Or

    The Lifting partner rotates at least five times, and the Lifted partner executes a change of pose and rotates at least 4 times\

    Or the Lifting partner does a one hand/one arm lift and rotates at least 3 times.

    A Level 4 Rotational Lift is a Non-One Aarm Level 3 lift with a Difficult or Creative Entry

    Or it's a lift without a Difficult or Creative entry, but with a change of pose or difficult position by both partners, where the lifting partner rotates 6 times and the lifted partner rotates 5 times

    Or it's a Level 3 One Hand/Arm Lift with a One Hand/Arm Rotational Lift
    Extra Feature.(lifting partner moving up and down during the lift, or lifting partner going on one foot during the lift for at least one rotation, or lifting partner having his lifting arm fully extended during the lift.




    Requirements in difficult position for lifted partner (Other positions have no stated requirements)

    Split must be "about 180 degrees" at the thigh
    Biellman - boot above the head
    Donut - 1/2 blade length or less to head
    upside down combined with difficult hold
    vertical support, hands only
    cantilever out or horizontal - only support is hands (In the questions, they are asked, "How horizontal is horizontal?," and are told,"We will be judging horizontal strictly."
    leaning out - only support is legs
    extended out support is shoulders or upper back


    Requirements in Difficult Position for the Lifting Partner (Other positions have no stated requirements)

    ) b) Shoot the Duck (thigh at least parallel to the ice) with any position of free leg;

    ;
    g) Crouch with two knees bent (thighs at least parallel to the ice) on two feet;
    h) Crouch with one knee bent (thigh at least parallel to the ice) on two feet with one leg extended
    to side;
    i) Lunge (thigh at least parallel to the ice) with any position of free leg;
    j) One Hand/Arm Lift: with no contact other than the lifting partner’s hand/arm and the lifted partner.

    Requirements in Change of Pose
    The change of body pose and changes of hold occur simultaneously;
     each pose, preceding and following the change is clearly defined and the first pose is attained and clearly shown prior to the change to the second pose;
     in Rotational Lifts, the movement through the Change of Pose occurs during rotations of both lifting and lifted partners.


    Requirements In One Arm Lifts

    Only One Hand/Arm Lift is used to lift, hold and set down the lifted partner, and
     the lifting partner is on one foot for at least one rotation;
     and/or the lifting partner significantly changes the level of his skating legs (knees) with a continuous motion;
     and/or the lifting partner’s holding arm is fully extended in front with a significant distance between partners.



    Adjustments to Levels
    1. In a Rotational Lift or Reverse Rotational Lift, if the lifting partner rotates for a while, stops rotation, and then continues to rotate some more, if the lifted partner is in a Difficult Pose when the rotation stops, the Level shall be reduced by one Level.

    2. If a loss of control with additional support (touch down by free leg/foot and/or hand(s)) occurs after a Dance Lift has commenced and the Dance Lift continues after touchdown (without interruption), its Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per touchdown.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-24-2013 at 05:16 AM.

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    Oh thank you.

    I puzzled for Chock/Bate lift's too. (SD) I think judges counted this as Difficult Pose lift. Madison did three rotation and changed did 3 more so maybe this is not in the rules for Change of Pose. Davis and White doing same lift (only one change of pose) too. Of course this is much more easy. You can see from Weaver/Poje's lift they are moving all the time. If one change of pose are counting you can get away with all time moving and doing difficult positions.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Thank you Doris, all this is so interesting!!
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    None of the 3 Russian teams nor the Ukrainian team received a downgraded lifts in the Free Dance.
    And this exaplains a lot of things

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    But look with all that rigging, B/S still have the lowest or second to lowest s/d and f/d scores going into the final! So it didn't achieve the desires results. They might have just judged the event fairly from the get go.

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    Thanks for the judging notes!

    What's the criteria for GOE? E.g. B/S' final mini-lift (before the scream ) got +3's and yet I've seen that easy lift performed on Battle of the Blades and exhibitions. Other teams did a much more intricate final mini-lift for 0's and 1's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Thanks for the judging notes!

    What's the criteria for GOE? E.g. B/S' final mini-lift (before the scream ) got +3's and yet I've seen that easy lift performed on Battle of the Blades and exhibitions. Other teams did a much more intricate final mini-lift for 0's and 1's.
    Their scores are without merit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    What's the criteria for GOE? E.g. B/S' final mini-lift (before the scream ) got +3's and yet I've seen that easy lift performed on Battle of the Blades and exhibitions. Other teams did a much more intricate final mini-lift for 0's and 1's.
    Wouldn't you expect a team to get high Grade of Execution, for an "easy" lift?

    And teams attempting more difficult lifts might end up with lower GoE - but that's the chance they take to get a higher base value?

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    For a choreographic lift (last one in everyone's program), the level is always One, and the base value is always One.

    The GOE is the same as all lifts. -3 to +3

    Adjustments can be made to the GOE for the following situations, also just the same as for ordinary lifts:




    Increase GOE

    Body lines and pose of both partners beautiful and aesthetically pleasing
    1 grade
    Speed maintained or accelerated during the Dance Lift \
    1 grade
    Dance Lift with special attribute for lifting partner
    1 grade
    Entry is unexpected
    1 grade
    Dance Lift is creative and enhances the choreography of the program
    1 grade
    Dance Lift fits to the phrasing of the music
    1 grade

    Decrease GOE

    Pose awkward or not aesthetically pleasing
    1 grade
    More than ½ turn within Straight Line/Curve Lift
    1 grade
    Dance Lift does not reflect the character of the chosen dance
    1 grade
    Dance Lift does not fit to the phrasing of the music
    GOE Total is not to be higher than -1

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    It looked to me as if all the non-Russian teams' lifts got reviewed, with negative consequences, hence the dropping TES between the end of the dance and the reading of the marks. If there was 'disagreement' the Controller gets to make the call, no? So we can thank Ms. Alpern for the low levels.

    I hope she won't be the ID Controller at Sochi

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    Custom Title Mattieu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    It looked to me as if all the non-Russian teams' lifts got reviewed, with negative consequences, hence the dropping TES between the end of the dance and the reading of the marks. If there was 'disagreement' the Controller gets to make the call, no? So we can thank Ms. Alpern for the low levels.

    I hope she won't be the ID Controller at Sochi
    It's the technical specialist who has the final say The technical controller is there to advise the technical specialist.

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    That is a very illuminating break-down. Thank you.

    It is disturbing this event was so blatantly political.

    There were posts that stated the panel members for Sochi - who are they and do they have good reputations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattieu View Post
    It's the technical specialist who has the final say The technical controller is there to advise the technical specialist.
    Not exactly. The Technical Controller can call a specific element into review. For example, tech specialist and assistant tech specialisr can both initially rate a lift as Lv 3 for example. The controller, if he/she asked to review an element, then all 3 of them will watch it again. At that point, even if just the assistant tech specialist changes his/her mind and the controller sides with him/her, then they can overrule the tech. specialist.

    The nuance is, initially, only the tech specialist calls an element's level whereas the controller will not. Controller will not intervene until the end of performance, even then, only if he/she feels certain elements need to be reviewed.

    However, if after the review, both the tech specialist and the assistant tech specialist are still in agreement, then their judgement will stand. Of course, if the Tech Specialist agree with Tech Controller, then their call will stand as well.

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    So does anyone have a "take-home" conclusion for this? I'll admit I was openly skeptical about cries of politikking for the Russian skaters at first, but looking back at Dance and even the ladies to some degree, I wonder if I was too dismissive of those who questioned the scores.

    Is there a blatant, beyond any norm setting up for Sochi results here? Or am I being paranoid? I truly vacillate between thinking nothing untoward occurred in Rostelecom to wondering if in fact the results for the Olys might be very specifically predetermined. ???

    I always figured that the so-called politicking by any federation/country was little more than normal promotion of a group's members by leaders of that group. For example, a prominent coach alerts judges and other officials in a casual way about the existence and achievements of their new star. Or a bit of unconscious bias toward home country skaters by both judges and technical officials -- letting questionable calls go in a general feeling of goodwill, that is. I think that sort of thing is only natural. But I never truly believed in a backroom cabal in which officials get together and specifically say that, barring total meltdown, Skater A will be first, B second, C third in Olys, then we'll give C first in Worlds as a consolation prize plus A won't be there, then we will let Skater D have second at Worlds to encourage him for the future, etc. etc.

    Thoughts? Esp any more comments on Dance at Rostelecom and what, if anything, it suggests for Sochi?

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