Plushenko or Kovtun?

CanadianSkaterGuy · Nov 30, 2013

wallylutz said:
Japan failed to qualify a Pairs team for the Olympics, which means they have to compete with only 3 disciplines. While technically, they still have a chance but without points from the Pairs event and a Dance team that will surely finish near the bottom, their chance of getting a Team Medal is very remote to none.

Really? I thought for the team event they were allowed an entry but not for the pairs event. That's lame... it was ridiculous enough when Japan had only 3 disciplines at WTT. I also feel kinda bad for the countries that lose to Japan in spite of 4 disciplines.

How were the team entries determined (I know it was a compilation of World ranking events). One would think that if a country's team qualified they would be still allowed an entry for each discipline. Otherwise it's like having a 4x100 team with just 3 runners.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Really, if any country has little shot of medalling in the team event, but has hopefuls in the individual events, they might as well say that their Olympic "team" consists of their would-be alternates. Then the alternates cite injury after competing in the team event, allowing the country's medal hopefuls to compete fully-rested in the individual events (instead of expending energy for a non-podium team placement).

I don't agree. Forget all this, "oh I need rest, I need rest" crybaby stuff. This is the Olympics that you have trained for for four years -- get out there and skate your fool head off.

Think of the team event as a chance for an extra practice or dress rehearsal if you must. :yes:

wallylutz · Nov 30, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
They were 3rd at World Team Trophy last year, without even including a pairs team. Easily defeated Russia, China, and France.

WTT is nothing but a glorified Japanese game show and its format is vastly different from the Olympics event. The major difference is that Singles have two entries, which means 2/3 of the total scores come from Singles and the lack of a Pairs team only affected 1/6 of the total score. Also, WTT only had 6 countries, not 10 at the Olympics, which means a last placed Dance team isn't so bad at WTT but would be in a bigger hole in a 10 Teams event. At the Olympics, the lack of Pairs will mean 25% of the total score = 0, much higher than 1/6 and Singles only provided 50% of the total score and most importantly, they will also lose the obvious home advantage given Fuji TV is not funding the event like it was at WTT.

Taking the 2013 WTT results, adjusting for the Olympic format :

Japan = 12+12+9 = 33
USA = 12+8+11+9 = 40
Canada = 11+6+11+11 = 39
Russia = 5+9+12+10 = 36

Japan would miss the podium to Russia and note that the Reeds seriously outperform what they were expected to do, therefore, the Ice Dance score was in fact not realistic to be repeated in Sochi, not to mention a higher number of teams.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2013

Wallylutz, do you know how they combine the placements from the short and long programs? IIRC there are ten teams for the short but only five advance to the long. So a weak pairs team, for instance, could get 9th place in the short but advance anyway on the strength of the other disciplines. Then that pairs team might finish fifth and last in the long.

Is it factored placements, or do they recalibrate using just the five finalists?

wallylutz · Nov 30, 2013

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Really? I thought for the team event they were allowed an entry but not for the pairs event. That's lame... it was ridiculous enough when Japan had only 3 disciplines at WTT. I also feel kinda bad for the countries that lose to Japan in spite of 4 disciplines.

How were the team entries determined (I know it was a compilation of World ranking events). One would think that if a country's team qualified they would be still allowed an entry for each discipline. Otherwise it's like having a 4x100 team with just 3 runners.

The qualification criteria is based on the individual disciplines. Skaters can only take part in the team's event, if they are also entered for the individual events. This is the reason why Russia can only enter one man into the Team Event to begin with because they can only enter one man for the individual event but not so for other countries such as Canada, USA and Japan. Japan did not qualify a Pairs team as Narumi Takahashi and her new partner failed to secure a spot for Japan at the Nebelhorn Trophy 2 months ago and no Japanese team qualified through last year's World Championships.

Someone said earlier Spain only qualified in 2 disciplines. I believe that is incorrect. Spain qualified, based on last year's World Championships in Men's, Ladies' and Dance. Both its lady and dance team reached the final (free program), therefore, qualified as a result. Spain will be able to enter the Team Event with 3 disciplines. Not sure if that makes them the "Top 10" teams however, since the Team Event is limited to 10 Teams however, as far as I know, Spain meets the minimum number of entries to be considered. I am recalling all the above based on memory so I may be missing a few details. Anyone who has more accurate info can jump in and correct me.

ice coverage · Nov 30, 2013

Have not caught up with the thread, but will note:

For each of the five countries who qualify for the team skating final, at least two of its skaters will be required to perform four programs over the course of the Olympics. 5 x 2 = 10 skaters minimum who must compete four times.

So assuming no withdrawals (based on injury planned or unplanned) for Russia's one man and China's one man, they will hardly be the only ones bearing the four-program load.

Mathman said:
On the version that I have Annex A starts on page four. The specific part about replacement skaters is in bold, so I assume that this is a revision to an earlier version. Here is the section in full. It is somewhat opaque and does not specifically mention a skater withdrawing after the team event and before the individual contests. But the spirit of the whole section pretty clearly allows that possibility, IMO.
3.3 Withdrawals & Alternate Skaters/Couples procedure

Thanks very much, Mathman. :bow:

Really appreciate that you copied and pasted the section of interest.
[The ISU calendar page still seems to link to the PDF that I have (dated Feb 2013), which lacks the stuff about injury :eek:

hwell:. If I ever find a link to your document, I will post it in this thread ... and/or in the one of the Olympic threads.)

wallylutz · Nov 30, 2013

Mathman said:
Wallylutz, do you know how they combine the placements from the short and long programs? IIRC there are ten teams for the short but only five advance to the long. So a weak pairs team, for instance, could get 9th place in the short but advance anyway on the strength of the other disciplines. Then that pairs team might finish fifth and last in the long.

Is it factored placements, or do they recalibrate using just the five finalists?

That's a good question, Math. I don't recall how they plan to do it. Maybe your document can shed some lights?

ice coverage · Nov 30, 2013

Mathman said:
Wallylutz, do you know how they combine the placements from the short and long programs? IIRC there are ten teams for the short but only five advance to the long. So a weak pairs team, for instance, could get 9th place in the short but advance anyway on the strength of the other disciplines. Then that pairs team might finish fifth and last in the long.

Is it factored placements, or do they recalibrate using just the five finalists?

wallylutz said:
That's a good question, Math. I don't recall how they plan to do it. Maybe your document can shed some lights?

"The 5 Teams ranked 1 to 5 based on the number of aggregate placement points shall continue the Figure Skating Team Event by competing in the Free Skating/Free Dance.

The Team having earned the highest number of aggregate placement points in the Short Program/Short Dance and the Free Skating/Free Dance is the winner, the Team having earned the second highest number of aggregate placement points is ranked second and so on."

My interpretation is that the placement points will not be recalibrated for the final.
Just my interpretation.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2013

Thank you. Yes, that seems clear. It looks like the short program will be weighted evenly with the long, then -- and the short is probably the more important because of the wider spread.

Now I am confused about the case of a country that does not qualify anyone in a particular discipline. According to the document that I have (it is from 2012):

NOCs/ISU Members who do not have qualified Skaters/Couples in an individual OWG competition/discipline (Single Lady, Single Man, Pair Skating, Ice Dance), may enter into the Figure Skating Team Event 1 Skater/Couple per competition/discipline plus one Stand-by Skater/Couple per discipline. The Stand-by Skaters/Couples will remain on stand-by and will not be accredited/allowed into the Olympic Village unless the initially entered Skater/Couple has been confirmed as withdrawn due to injury, illness or other serious reasons as accepted by the IOC/ISU.

But I remember reading elsewhere that a country can do this for only one of the four disciplines. So for instance Japan, which qualified men, ladies and dance, could also enter a pairs team even though they have no pairs team that has met the minimum qualifying score for the individual competitions. (?)

snowflake · Nov 30, 2013

LOL, this thread isn't about Plushenko or Kovtun? anymore. I imagine most skaters want to be on the ice as much as possible in Sochi in front of viewers all over the world. Including Plushenko :biggrin:

ice coverage · Nov 30, 2013

Mathman said:
... Now I am confused about the case of a country that does not qualify anyone in a particular discipline. According to the document that I have (it is from 2012):

But I remember reading elsewhere that a country can do this for only one of the four disciplines. So for instance Japan, which qualified men, ladies and dance, could also enter a pairs team even though they have no pairs team that has met the minimum qualifying score for the individual competitions. (?)

Yes, for only one discipline.

NOCs/ISU Members who do not have qualified Skaters/Couples in an individual OWG competition/discipline (Single Lady, Single Man, Pair Skating, Ice Dance), may benefit of an “Additional Athletes Quota” and enter into the Figure Skating Team Event 1 Skater/Couple. If applicable, each NOC may benefit of this Additional Athletes Quota for only one discipline of the Figure Skating Team Event.

And for all countries in the team event, the total number of additional athletes is ten. (Athletes, not entries. One pair = two athletes. One dance couple = two athletes.)
Off the top of my head, this limit in theory does not seem likely to become an issue in practice ... but I could be wrong.

Mathman said:
On the version that I have Annex A starts on page four. The specific part about replacement skaters is in bold, so I assume that this is a revision to an earlier version. Here is the section in full. It is somewhat opaque and does not specifically mention a skater withdrawing after the team event and before the individual contests. But the spirit of the whole section pretty clearly allows that possibility, IMO.
3.3 Withdrawals & Alternate Skaters/Couples procedure

Nominated Skaters/Couples unable to compete due to injury/illness or other accepted serious reasons in any segment of the Figure Skating Team Event, the concerned NOC/ISU Member may replace the concerned Skater/Couple by a named Alternate Skater/Couple.

For NOCs/ISU Members having 2 or 3 Skaters/Couples competing in an individual OWG competition/discipline, the concerned NOC/ISU Member must replace the injured Skater/Couple by another Alternate Skater/Couple present and accredited on site of the OWG unless such Alternate Skater/Couple is also confirmed to be unable to compete.

For NOCs/ISU Member who have no available Alternate Skaters/Couples on site and accredited at the OWG, Stand-by Skaters/Couples to travel to the site of the OWG are accepted as per the IOC guidelines and time-lines. ...

Click to expand...

Looking again at what I agree is opaque language here, I see that for the team event, a country is allowed to make a substitution on the team because of injury.

But what remains unclear to me is whether "Stand-by Skaters/Couples" who are in fact needed (and eligible) to skate in the team event also will be permitted to continue on and skate in the individual events for their discipline. :confused2: :think:

Mathman · Nov 30, 2013

^ I think the ISU would have to allow this. Strategies and shenanigans aside, if a skater gets injured any time before the individual short program begins, an alternate should be allowed, independently of whatever transpired at the team event.

Mathman · Nov 30, 2013

snowflake said:
I imagine most skaters want to be on the ice as much as possible in Sochi in front of viewers all over the world. Including Plushenko

This.

wallylutz · Nov 30, 2013

snowflake said:
LOL, this thread isn't about Plushenko or Kovtun? anymore. I imagine most skaters want to be on the ice as much as possible in Sochi in front of viewers all over the world. Including Plushenko

- Euros 2013

- Russian Fed

- Win at any cost

demarinis5 · Nov 30, 2013

wallylutz said:
The qualification criteria is based on the individual disciplines. Skaters can only take part in the team's event, if they are also entered for the individual events. This is the reason why Russia can only enter one man into the Team Event to begin with because they can only enter one man for the individual event but not so for other countries such as Canada, USA and Japan. Japan did not qualify a Pairs team as Narumi Takahashi and her new partner failed to secure a spot for Japan at the Nebelhorn Trophy 2 months ago and no Japanese team qualified through last year's World Championships.

Someone said earlier Spain only qualified in 2 disciplines. I believe that is incorrect. Spain qualified, based on last year's World Championships in Men's, Ladies' and Dance. Both its lady and dance team reached the final (free program), therefore, qualified as a result. Spain will be able to enter the Team Event with 3 disciplines. Not sure if that makes them the "Top 10" teams however, since the Team Event is limited to 10 Teams however, as far as I know, Spain meets the minimum number of entries to be considered. I am recalling all the above based on memory so I may be missing a few details. Anyone who has more accurate info can jump in and correct me.

Alexandr Zaboev who is Russian and skates for Estonia as a Pair team which qualified for the Olympics has been denied Estonian citizenship. So they won't
be going to the Olympics. Estonia does not have another pair team. Takahashi/Kihara are first on the the Stand by Entries list.
No official announcement yet. I am pretty sure that Japan will have 4 disciplines for the Team event.

http://rus.err.ee/topnews/2fe09307-cdf5-4327-8e23-43f094f6f78c

See Page 2 for the Stand-by Entries list for Pairs:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=4772

Buttercup · Dec 1, 2013

wallylutz said:
The qualification criteria is based on the individual disciplines. Skaters can only take part in the team's event, if they are also entered for the individual events. This is the reason why Russia can only enter one man into the Team Event to begin with because they can only enter one man for the individual event but not so for other countries such as Canada, USA and Japan. Japan did not qualify a Pairs team as Narumi Takahashi and her new partner failed to secure a spot for Japan at the Nebelhorn Trophy 2 months ago and no Japanese team qualified through last year's World Championships.

Someone said earlier Spain only qualified in 2 disciplines. I believe that is incorrect. Spain qualified, based on last year's World Championships in Men's, Ladies' and Dance. Both its lady and dance team reached the final (free program), therefore, qualified as a result. Spain will be able to enter the Team Event with 3 disciplines. Not sure if that makes them the "Top 10" teams however, since the Team Event is limited to 10 Teams however, as far as I know, Spain meets the minimum number of entries to be considered. I am recalling all the above based on memory so I may be missing a few details. Anyone who has more accurate info can jump in and correct me.

No, I was right about Spain the first time. Unfortunately Sonia Lafuente did not qualify via Worlds or Nebelhorn (and of course there is no pairs spot). They have two entries in the men's event and one for ice dance, and the latter was qualified at Nebelhorn, not Worlds. Reaching the free skate at Worlds is not an automatic qualification for the Olympics, because the fixed number of Olympic spots available at Worlds also include countries that earn multiple entries, and this pushes some of the lower-finishing skaters out (other examples: Australia and Austria in ladies, GB in pairs).

Wikipedia is our friend

also I like the Spanish skaters.

And as others have noted, Japan can field a pairs entry in the team event even if the Estonians sort out their citizenship issues.

Mathman · Dec 1, 2013

Has either Plushenko or Kovtun said anything about maybe skating just the team event, then bowing out? Or is it just us?

Has any athlete complained about skating four times in two weeks? Or is the universal attitude among the skaters, "Oh boy, more medals, more medals!"

CanadianSkaterGuy · Dec 1, 2013

demarinis5 said:
Alexandr Zaboev who is Russian and skates for Estonia as a Pair team which qualified for the Olympics has been denied Estonian citizenship. So they won't
be going to the Olympics. Estonia does not have another pair team. Takahashi/Kihara are first on the the Stand by Entries list.
No official announcement yet. I am pretty sure that Japan will have 4 disciplines for the Team event.

http://rus.err.ee/topnews/2fe09307-cdf5-4327-8e23-43f094f6f78c

See Page 2 for the Stand-by Entries list for Pairs:
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=4772

That's horrible for that team. To earn a spot and then have it denied. :no:

But good news for team Japan and T/K. Although wouldn't another Estonian pairs team (if there is any) take their place?

LRK · Dec 1, 2013

Mathman said:
Has either Plushenko or Kovtun said anything about maybe skating just the team event, then bowing out? Or is it just us?

Has any athlete complained about skating four times in two weeks? Or is the universal attitude among the skaters, "Oh boy, more medals, more medals!"

I haven't heard of any currently active skaters complaining - I've only heard of some retired skaters having issues? Yags and Stojko, I think? But I haven't seen the sources, only someone saying that they'd seen something that they'd said - so apply desired amounts of salt, until someone comes forth with more reliable info.

plushyfan · Dec 1, 2013

Tarasova
http://www.sovsport.ru/news/text-item/657166
translated by Google

At the Olympic Games in Sochi in men's figure skating, Russia has only one license. Tournament starts skaters team competition for the first time in the history of the Winter Olympics. As it turned out, the possibility exists that the Games will act as a backup and another Russian.

"This issue is addressed - said Tarasova. - But what will be the decision of the International Skating Union - is unknown. Maybe so and succeed - in the team will perform one another in their personal. We will not speculate, we'll see. "

Piseev:
http://sochi2014.rsport.ru/sochi2014_figure/20131119/702142252.html
translated by Google

Question about extra skater at the Olympics fundamentally resolved - Piseev
MOSCOW, November 19 - R-Sport. The possibility of replacing the Russian sculler after team tournament at the Winter Olympics in Sochi fundamentally resolved , said CEO of the Federation of figure skating in Russia ( FFKKR ) Valentin Piseyev .

In the men's figure skating at the Olympic Games in Sochi, Russia will present only one participant . Under the current regulations in the team Olympic competitions should act the same skater , which is stated in the statement .

" Information such is that the International Skating Union (ISU) appealed to the IOC asking that there were spare athletes - Piseyev said at a news conference at RIA Novosti. - We are informed that the issue has been resolved . Official paper at the moment we have but we are confident that it will . "

" Thus, we can put the team competition after spare skaters in individual tournament ," - said General Director FFKKR .

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