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Thread: Plushenko or Kovtun?

  1. #31
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    FCSp4 [1] – Solid execution, interesting change of position including a hand grabbing his blade, though slow : BV = 3.2 TV = 3.7
    CSSp3[2] – Well executed, well centered, good speed, though leg extension during sit position can be tighter : BV = 2.7 TV = 3.7
    3Lz(e) (*) [0] – Unclear edge entry into an otherwise solid jump : BV = TV = 6.6
    LOL. His Lutz edge is not at all unclear. He always takes off from a deep outside edge.

    Those spin GOE's are too high. His Camel is clearly a 0 at most. -1 would be fair because of how much speed he loses in it, along with the positions being average. The sit spin is 0 or +1, if you want to credit the jump feature as being well done. Nothing else about that spin was above average.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Now, in terms of the technical content, I continue to be baffled by Team Mishin's disregard for CoP. The first thing that caught my attention is that Plushenko continues to do only 2 jump combos instead of the 3 he is allowed knowing that this actually cost him the gold medal in Vancouver.
    Do a little research. Plushenko plans a 3Sal+2Axel sequence. He obviously didn't do it here because he was too tired.

    His jump layout is perfectly fine like this. He is backloading 5 jumping passes, including all the combinations. That's a huge change for him. He doesn't need more than one Quad and he doesn't need a Triple Flip.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE


    Now, in terms of the technical content, I continue to be baffled by Team Mishin's disregard for CoP. The first thing that caught my attention is that Plushenko continues to do only 2 jump combos instead of the 3 he is allowed knowing that this actually cost him the gold medal in Vancouver. Of course, some will say : "Don't worry, he will surely add one in Sochi." If so, he needs to compete with a 3rd combo now, not at Sochi in order to start getting used to it. Triple Flip continues to be absent in his repertoire, which forced him to do a Double Axel instead, that would again set him back by about another 3 points or so, factoring both lost BV and GOE. Plushenko doesn't do a 2nd Quad when virtually every other top male skater is doing at least 2 will also put him at a great disadvantage. If he does decide to add a 2nd Quad Toe, then he won't be able to repeat either the Lutz or Axel, which in turn makes the lack of a Triple Flip even more glaring with respect to his jumping passes utilization. All these little things add up such that despite a relatively solid skate, the best he can manage is about 83 in TES. Know that when other men have been scoring 90+ even 100+ TES this season, his chance of Olympic glory seems more than remote at this point.
    I missed this! No he plans and has done 3 combos or sequences. What happened in the whole 2009-2010 season was belief that he would fall on the third jump of any 3 jump combo, SO like in Turin and previously, or UR it so he never did one. He believed 3 2 jump combos one of which was a quad triple would get the BV and GOE to make up for the third jump he was leaving out. It wasn't a ridiculous idea. But he should have done a 3 jump combo of course. Now he has every season since Vancouver. And it's an important change as is all the backloading or midloading!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Do a little research. Plushenko plans a 3Sal+2Axel sequence. He obviously didn't do it here because he was too tired.
    That's a little bit of an odd choice. A 3S-2L is worth the same base value as a 3S-2A(SEQ) and obviously much easier to execute.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Oh, thank you, I just understand how weak skater he is.
    Not a weak skater, a weak program. But let's give him time to develop his programs. I hope he gets his programs at least to the difficulty and quality of Euros 2012. It would be a shame to see him put out another jump fest when it seemed he was on the right track to making his programs actually intricate and with strong choreography.

  5. #35
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    If it's Kovtun, he will skate a decent SP (not 92, maybe 80 if he holds it together) but he will bomb the FS for sure and place out of the top 10.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Yes, and Olympics are of course always perfectly skated events. Even 'well skated' would be enough to count for irony here. That's how Lysacek became OGM.
    Lysacek defeated a clean Plushenko for gold and Lysacek himself was clean, so yes, it was well skated indeed given that both the Gold and Silver medalists were clean in SP and LP. Unlike Dennis Ten who won his World Silver by being the last man standing in a splashfest, Lysacek did not win his OGM due to a splashfest or anything remotely resembling that. I can't recall a time when a man's Olympic Champion was crowned from a splashfest or anything remotely close to that in the last 20 years. It seems to me you are confusing the women's event with the men's.


    The point is, despite what you said before, he does have a chance if he skates clean, because there's a high chance enough other men will make mistakes.
    In other news, there is a chance that Gamma ray from a super nova will hit earth tomorrow. Or for something a little more realistic, it's possible everyone will tumble badly again such that Dennis Ten will win OGM. Nevermind the probability you are referring to is a big long shot. What you refused to understand, which is puzzling to me, is that Plushenko's current Technical content is insufficient such that several men can afford 2 major errors and still beat him technically. In other words, even if Plushenko were clean, some of current top male skaters can still beat him by being less than clean because they have so much more content than he does. To illustrate this point, I used a recent example, which is Hanyu's FS at TEB. It wasn't a dig at him, but for some odd reasons you think showing Hanyu having a 2 falls advantage over Plushenko = insult.

    Besides, if you argue under the presumption Plush would only be worth sending if he was a definite medal threat, you're wrong. Plush deserves to go as long as he's still the best russian men. You think Kovtun will beat Chan, Takahashi, Hanyu or Fernandez when they skate well?
    Frankly, neither Plusehnko or Kovtun have a realistic shot even though Kovtun just scored a 90+ SP at CoR. The difference is, investment in Kovtun = investment for Russia's future men skating. Lysacek credited his OGM to his learning experience at the 2006 Olympics. If Kovtun or another Russian man is deprived of this experience, no Russian man would have been to Olympics other than Plushenko in 8 years when 2018 Olympics happens or 12 years if you consider Borodulin is no longer skating. That's a lost decade.

    Let's face it, the chance that Russian Nationals will crown a new Russian Champion other than Plushenko when he competes is virtually non-existent. No matter what he does, he will get straight 9s and 10s for PCS. This is sad however. Russian men have been depressing for a very long time and the fact their national qualification system is inequitable plays a big part to ensure many young men quit already as they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

  7. #37
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    IMHO there is no way the Russian Federation will send anyone but Plushenko to Sochi if he wants to go. No more was the USFSA going to send Emily Hughes ahead of Michelle Kwan in 2006.

    But Plushenko could do what Kwan did. March in the opening ceremonies,wave the flag, get interviewed for TV, then decide that his body is not up to it after all.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    Oh, thank you, I just understand how weak skater he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Not a weak skater, a weak program. But let's give him time to develop his programs. I hope he gets his programs at least to the difficulty and quality of Euros 2012. It would be a shame to see him put out another jump fest when it seemed he was on the right track to making his programs actually intricate and with strong choreography.
    CanadianSkaterGuy already clarified this important nuance for me. I'll add that many fans continue to advocate for reputation judging and that established skaters be given reputation bonus as opposed to what was actually skated on ice. That's what Team Mishin / Russian Fed is hoping for as well by withdrawing Plushenko from CoR when he is clearly capable of competing at CoR as demonstrated by his recent showing at Volvo Cup. To be clear, many top skaters used the same approach in the past - avoid competing as much as possible or competing in B events or informal competitions. For this reason, I have my doubt Plushenko will even show up at Euros 2014. My guess is he will show up at Russian Nationals and crowned National Champion no matter what happens, officially named as Russia's solo Olympic entry, then skip Euros citing injury/health issues.

  9. #39
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    Kovtun's 92 at CoR was laughable. Yes, he deserved the high TES, but his PCS scores were absurd. He is stiff as a board and his technique is poor.

    Kovtun got a higher PCS score for his messy FS at COR than Jeremy Abbott got for his sublime FS at NHK. How can that possibly be justified?!

  10. #40
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    ^ Abbott fell short on the sublime-o-meter, if you ask me. But yeah, he is more graceful than Kovtun.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Lysacek defeated a clean Plushenko for gold and Lysacek himself was clean, so yes, it was well skated indeed given that both the Gold and Silver medalists were clean in SP and LP. Unlike Dennis Ten who won his World Silver by being the last man standing in a splashfest, Lysacek did not win his OGM due to a splashfest or anything remotely resembling that. I can't recall a time when a man's Olympic Champion was crowned from a splashfest or anything remotely close to that in the last 20 years. It seems to me you are confusing the women's event with the men's.




    In other news, there is a chance that Gamma ray from a super nova will hit earth tomorrow. Or for something a little more realistic, it's possible everyone will tumble badly again such that Dennis Ten will win OGM. Nevermind the probability you are referring to is a big long shot. What you refused to understand, which is puzzling to me, is that Plushenko's current Technical content is insufficient such that several men can afford 2 major errors and still beat him technically. In other words, even if Plushenko were clean, some of current top male skaters can still beat him by being less than clean because they have so much more content than he does. To illustrate this point, I used a recent example, which is Hanyu's FS at TEB. It wasn't a dig at him, but for some odd reasons you think showing Hanyu having a 2 falls advantage over Plushenko = insult.



    Frankly, neither Plusehnko or Kovtun have a realistic shot even though Kovtun just scored a 90+ SP at CoR. The difference is, investment in Kovtun = investment for Russia's future men skating. Lysacek credited his OGM to his learning experience at the 2006 Olympics. If Kovtun or another Russian man is deprived of this experience, no Russian man would have been to Olympics other than Plushenko in 8 years when 2018 Olympics happens or 12 years if you consider Borodulin is no longer skating. That's a lost decade.

    Let's face it, the chance that Russian Nationals will crown a new Russian Champion other than Plushenko when he competes is virtually non-existent. No matter what he does, he will get straight 9s and 10s for PCS. This is sad however. Russian men have been depressing for a very long time and the fact their national qualification system is inequitable plays a big part to ensure many young men quit already as they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.
    This is entirely Kovtun's fault! He totally choked in 2013 worlds! The JGP Kovtun was gone and there was a terrible skater who didn't deserve to be there and probably shouldn't have because he totally robbed Menshov. But even with his robbery of Menshov it was his duty to prepare to be good and top 10 in London and he was horrible! His TES in the SP was the lowest of the qualified men. He bombed and did awful. If no Russian man has been to the Olympics other than Plushenko and retired Borodulin that's all Kovtun's fault and problem and he owns that.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    This is entirely Kovtun's fault! He totally choked in 2013 worlds! The JGP Kovtun was gone and there was a terrible skater who didn't deserve to be there and probably shouldn't have because he totally robbed Menshov. But even with his robbery of Menshov it was his duty to prepare to be good and top 10 in London and he was horrible! His TES in the SP was the lowest of the qualified men. He bombed and did awful. If no Russian man has been to the Olympics other than Plushenko and retired Borodulin that's all Kovtun's fault and problem and he owns that.
    Do not blame Kovtun. Blame the Russian federation for sending an inexperienced skater over other experienced skaters simply because of a 5th place at Euros. Kovtun was essentially forced to compete at Worlds instead of compete at Junior Worlds where he would have had not as much pressure and probably would have medalled. It must have been horrible for Kovtun, knowing that if he didn't do enough to claim 2 spots, he was essentially compromising his own ticket to Sochi.

    Plus, there's no guarantee that Menshov would have skated well and earned 2 spots... his personal best ever is 223.72, which would have earned him 11th at Worlds 2013 (over 5 points behind a 10th place Brezina). Menshov was robbed of the opportunity, yes, but chances are he wouldn't have done enough to claim 2 spots.

  13. #43
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    Kovtun represents the whole thing! I say Kovtun but was also saying Russian federation for choosing him for euros but also excusing him from the Russia cup final! Then possibly under extreme pressure there was total crumbling! Which may have been true of voronov or menshov but that's hypothetical.

  14. #44
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    At which point of Volvo video plushenko does airplane arms and hip thrusts?
    Last edited by seniorita; 11-26-2013 at 02:19 AM.

  15. #45
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    At which point of Volvo video plushenko does airplane arms and hip thrusts?
    This is a good qestion. I think she/he has "learned" it and repeats even if not true, because it sounds good for those people who don't like him. I could read after Vancouver "the fs isn't only one jump",

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