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Thread: Plushenko or Kovtun?

  1. #61
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I did your homework for you since this is short & easy:

    The only one "twizzle" Plushenko did, which is not a part of his required Step Sequence element can be found right here :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=1m45s

    It lasted not even half of a second and his foot barely left the ground but I suppose it can qualify as a twizzle if we apply its definition very, very liberally.

    The other twizzles can be found here :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m13s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m20s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m36s

    Except all three are a part of his required Step Sequence element, which does not count as an in-between demonstration of one-foot skating. Even then, you can see at 3m37s mark, he actually slipped on the last turn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m37s

    As a result, based on the above review that your claim re: he did twizzles all over the place, is now firmly debunked as false. He barely completed a twizzle once outside of his required elements. In fact, one should say he had zero twizzles in his program outside of the required step sequence element.
    If you had seen his all programs in the past, then you know he has one of the best twiizzles among the men.

  2. #62
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Thank wallylutz for your analysis, You surely have watched his lp more than me by now. There is 4 seconds of airplane arms which I have no idea why that's any wrong for skating and concerning the two foot skating which I have no objection with your comment, how about we tear apart any program of any GP skater who is not Chan or Daisuke? I do not like how Plushenko is singled out now or 4 years ago and I have yet to see a hip thrust on this program, sth people repeat I don't know why, you d think Plush would be working at Moulin rouge..

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I did your homework for you since this is short & easy:

    The only one "twizzle" Plushenko did, which is not a part of his required Step Sequence element can be found right here :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=1m45s

    It lasted not even half of a second and his foot barely left the ground but I suppose it can qualify as a twizzle if we apply its definition very, very liberally.

    The other twizzles can be found here :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m13s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m20s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m36s

    Except all three are a part of his required Step Sequence element, which does not count as an in-between demonstration of one-foot skating. Even then, you can see at 3m37s mark, he actually slipped on the last turn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZeQlQ_p4ZE#t=3m37s

    As a result, based on the above review that your claim re: he did twizzles all over the place, is now firmly debunked as false. He barely completed a twizzle once outside of his required elements. In fact, one should say he had zero twizzles in his program outside of the required step sequence element.
    It's "firmly debunked as false" your statement that he can't skate on one foot. Your biased hate driven agenda collapsed when you were directed back to your own video in which you can only see what you hate!

  4. #64
    Custom Title plushyfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    plushyfan, I sympathize with his difficult road of recovery and understand your admiration for him. Unfortunately, the Olympic Games is only 2.5 months away. It doesn't matter whether his body still think it's August, the fact is GP season is already over and many top male skaters will be heading to their last international competition before Sochi is less than 10 days of time.

    As an observer, I am not admonishing his current technical content but merely remarking what I saw on ice. Furthermore, I cannot take into account his press releases or announcements, not even if he is dedicating his last Olympics to all the orphans in the world. Maybe Plushenko did plan a 3rd combo somewhere or maybe he even has a 2nd Quad planned in his program as well, that's all besides the point. The fact of the matter is he did not attempt them in the competition he chose to take part and I can only go by what I saw. Given that the deadline of Sochi Olympics will not be moved because he is still recovering from an injury, my assessment as of November 2013 is that Plushenko is not ready to take on the big guns yet, neither technically, even less so from a presentation standpoint. As for enduring pressure and stress from stakeholders and the media, he is not alone. All the top men have a lot to carry on their shoulders, especially for those Japanese men. In their culture, death is sometimes preferable than shame and dishonor, that's how extreme the Japanese can be. Stories of Japanese committing suicide from all walks of life is not infrequent. We don't know what kind of pressure these top Japanese skaters are dealing with but it's probably a good guess that the pressure is enormous.



    I am willing to take this witness' account at face value, even so, it's not relevant. Judging of PCS, different from the casual "you like apple and I like orange", is that there are specific elements that the judges are looking for under each criterion. While the ability to interact with the audience is important and definitely should be considered by the judges, it is only a small part among many many more parts that together form PCS. At the core of PCS is the ability to use your blades to compose a choreography and present the chosen music. This sentence summarizes all 5 components of PCS in nutshell. The issue at hand is not whether Plushenko can smile or not. If you ask me, I find him to be charming and attractive. In Singles Skating, excessive two foot skating simply does not belong at the elite level. In fact, there are quite a few skaters who can do all these jumps yet some of them don't even make top 20 at worlds or even qualify for World Championships. You don't see them on TV but their number is not small. I remember there was a North Korean male skater at the 2010 Olympics, his jumps were very impressive - but he couldn't even make the cut for free skate. Also, unlike many here, I have seen Plushenko competing in person, last time, it was at the 2010 Olympics. If anything, time has really taken a toll on his body. Despite Mishin's claim to contrary, Plushenko in 2013 is no where near where he was in 2010 and the 2010 Olympics Plushenko can't medal in 2014 Olympics.
    You are sarcastic and do not want to understand what I said. He has no time to make perfect programs, perfect elements, and so on. Since Riga he has almost two month to Rus Nat, to Euros more than two months.. When you consider that in 2002 they made ​​a completely new program during this time, and won silver with it, then it's not hopeless. It is the skeleton program, they need to correct his mistakes, plus transitions and even a quad. He learn choreography very quickly, he is known about it. I just ask for him some patience...

    Look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9gyjnsLeIw this is a gala program.. the choreographer was Zhulin
    and Camerlengo's program very good angle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIwHnbQbYnY he had broken blade

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Thank wallylutz for your analysis, You surely have watched his lp more than me by now. There is 4 seconds of airplane arms which I have no idea why that's any wrong for skating and concerning the two foot skating which I have no objection with your comment, how about we tear apart any program of any GP skater who is not Chan or Daisuke? I do not like how Plushenko is singled out now or 4 years ago and I have yet to see a hip thrust on this program, sth people repeat I don't know why, you d think Plush would be working at Moulin rouge..
    With all due respect, I think you are taking this personally for no good reason. Tear apart is such a strongly worded expression, I don't know if this how you intended it to come out - on my part, there was no such intention. Plushenko's current program has some fairly obvious issues, even plushyfan admitted as much but instead blamed it on lack of training time. Regardless of the reason(s), the issues are there and many people want to know where Plushenko stands, vis-à-vis the other elite male skaters.

    Now, if you want to compare it to some skaters besides Takahashi or Chan, that's fine with me because there are many other men whose in-between are great other than these two. Here are some examples :

    Nobunari Oda : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQlWGcpAkFo
    Jeremy Abbott : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6wRcJnuL0Q
    Jason Brown : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_X_F8zJ8k8

    Do you feel it's fair if Plushenko gets a higher PCS than any of these 3 above mentioned skaters when their performance level is more or less the same? If we were to believe that Mathman is right, then chances are, Plushenko will beat all 3 of them in terms of PCS by quite a bit, how do you justify that?

  6. #66
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    Kovtun is simply not experienced enough to go to the Olympics. But I think he should substitute Plushenko for the team event.

  7. #67
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Predicting is not justifying. But I will revise my prediction of Plushenko's PCS to 82.80, the same as he got in 2010. (It would have been a tad higher except that three judges read the Joe Inman memo and gave him 6's for transitions.)

    We have to remember that it's the marks of the judges that count, not analyses posted on the Internet.

  8. #68
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^You cannot substitute for some part, if Kovtun replaces Evgeni in team event that means he will have to skate the individuals too.

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
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    Ididnt want to come out as strong then, maybe breaking down was more suitable. I certainly didnt take anything personally, I really dont care that much for the outcome, I will be really happy to see Plush in Sochi and thats about all, if he is not even there I ll still be in Olympic Games with lots of skaters to cheer for! But I m sorry you seem to focus on Plushenko's unfair marks, while a book can be written for all the iffy judgements that have happened during the last 4 years in pcs and in GOE. Yes Plushenko's program in Volvo cannot be getting same pcs marks of the three programs above but I cannot say anything about the pcs of Plushenko in Sochi because he has not skated the program yet, are the pcs a mark that you carry along from one competition to another and represent your ideal skate? It seems this way, Abott for example deserves great pcs when he skates like Nationals 2010, but in Vancouver he wasnt that great. So how can one say Plushenko wont deserve the marks for a skate that hasnt happened yet? And I suddently dont see him getting 70s, sorry.
    Also I gave up on fair marks since Kozuka is not clearly getting the pcs he deserves after so many years in skating. Plushenko's overmarkign can make up for all my frustration on Kozuka not getting the ones he deserves.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Predicting is not justifying. But I will revise my prediction of Plushenko's PCS to 82.80, the same as he got in 2010. (It would have been a tad higher except that three judges read the Joe Inman memo and gave him 6's for transitions.)

    We have to remember that it's the marks of the judges that count, not analyses posted on the Internet.
    He wishes 6 was the lowest! Try 5.00!! Him and the 24th place fisher got that!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    ^You cannot substitute for some part, if Kovtun replaces Evgeni in team event that means he will have to skate the individuals too.
    Only because Russia has one spot only for Men's. Canada for example, can have Kevin Reynolds skate the SP while Patrick Chan takes the FS.


    Ididnt want to come out as strong then, maybe breaking down was more suitable. I certainly didnt take anything personally, I really dont care that much for the outcome, I will be really happy to see Plush in Sochi and thats about all, if he is not even there I ll still be in Olympic Games with lots of skaters to cheer for!
    Cool!

    But I m sorry you seem to focus on Plushenko's unfair marks, while a book can be written for all the iffy judgements that have happened during the last 4 years in pcs and in GOE.
    I haven't been part of any discussion re: Plushenko for a good 10 months. In any event, many people believe Plushenko has been seriously overmarked in PCS with good reasons for quite some time, I am far from alone. However, I understand why my comments can come across as somewhat sensitive to some people. Keep in mind, my opinion is just that - my $0.02, nothing more. Mathman said it right and I quote :
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    We have to remember that it's the marks of the judges (at the Olympics) that count, not analyses posted on the Internet.

    Yes Plushenko's program in Volvo cannot be getting same pcs marks of the three programs above but I cannot say anything about the pcs of Plushenko in Sochi because he has not skated the program yet, are the pcs a mark that you carry along from one competition to another and represent your ideal skate? It seems this way, Abott for example deserves great pcs when he skates like Nationals 2010, but in Vancouver he wasnt that great. So how can one say Plushenko wont deserve the marks for a skate that hasnt happened yet? And I suddently dont see him getting 70s, sorry.
    I think you misunderstood as I have made it very clear my assessment is only pertinent at this point & time, it doesn't mean he cannot improve from this point forward. And the link to other skaters' programs are far from perfect, they just happen to be from the most recent GP events. In any event, PCS in the 70's is not bad. Even Hanyu got PCS in the 70s this season in one competition. I can say that if Plushenko up his performance level, get more speed, skate less cautiously and up his ante, my marks for him will have no where to go but up.

    Also I gave up on fair marks since Kozuka is not clearly getting the pcs he deserves after so many years in skating. Plushenko's overmarkign can make up for all my frustration on Kozuka not getting the ones he deserves.
    To be fair, Kozuka has his issues as well. There is a reason why his PCS is below even that of Jason Brown. Everyone has something to work on, that includes Patrick Chan, it's just some have more work to do than others. Even if we take Chan's record setting TEB performance, I can still pick out several things that I wish to see him work on & improve. The fact is Chan is still getting many 1s for GOE and those 1s can become at least 2. It's just me, I am nitpicky but only because I wish to see the skaters better themselves, nothing more.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    ^You cannot substitute for some part, if Kovtun replaces Evgeni in team event that means he will have to skate the individuals too.
    You can substitute if a skater is injured, which is what many suspect the Russian federation will orchestrate... as in Kovtun or Plushenko skates in the team event, and after that event is over, they cite "injury" allowing the other one to compete in the individual event.

  12. #72
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Although...it is hard to see any advantage to the Russian Federation for doing this.

  13. #73
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    The Doctors revision of his diagnosis of plushenko would lead to plushenko losing his eligibility so whatever kovtun faked would probably have to keep him out of worlds too! It would raise too many questions and it's totally doubtful kovtun and tarasova would be days or hours away from doing the individual event and then be like "time for plushenko!" doubt it.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Although...it is hard to see any advantage to the Russian Federation for doing this.
    The "advantage" is if Russian Fed wants Plushenko to focus solely on the individual event, they could use another skater for the Team event and then plug Plushenko into the competition after the Team event because Kovtun or someone else is "suddenly injured". Some have speculated that Plushenko's body simply won't allow him to perform at a high level in such back to back fashion. Plus, it would allow Kovtun to officially take part in the Sochi Olympics even though he won't be skating in the individual event, thus lessen any criticism that Plushenko monopolized other Russian men's opportunity to take part at the Olympics.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    The Doctors revision of his diagnosis of plushenko would lead to plushenko losing his eligibility so whatever kovtun faked would probably have to keep him out of worlds too! It would raise too many questions and it's totally doubtful kovtun and tarasova would be days or hours away from doing the individual event and then be like "time for plushenko!" doubt it.
    Worlds is a good 1.5 months after the Olympics' Men FS event - enough time to recover from a minor injury. Skaters can be injured during a competition and forced to withdraw, it happens all the time. Sure, there will be doubts but when somebody withdraws for medical reasons, the ISU has no choice but accept it at face value, similar to how Plushenko injured himself during Euro 2013 SP even though many people didn't understand how the injury occur or was it a pre-existing condition.

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