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Thread: Plushenko or Kovtun?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Although...it is hard to see any advantage to the Russian Federation for doing this.
    Plushenko enters the team event and gets a 4th medal. Kovtun competes in the individual event and places wherever he happens to place. Or Kovtun enters the team event and gets a medal, says he's "injured", and Plushenko comes in and gets to skate in front of the home crowd. Either way, it ensures Plushenko and Kovtun get to skate even though Russia has only 1 men's entry. That is the advantage.

    This is of course speculation. One would hope Russia acts honourably and doesn't orchestrate a stunt like this. However, we are talking about the Russian fed here.

    They might even want to rest up Plushenko for the individual event and throw Kovtun in there; or they might want to ensure Plushenko wins a medal and put him in the team event and cite injury to allow Kovtun to compete (and allow Plushenko to end his career on a high note instead of risk being well off the podium in the men's event).

  2. #77
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ? Why is it an advantage to have your best guy skate once and your second best guy skate once, instead of your best guy skating twice? The point is to win as many medals as possible, not to spread the love.

    Canada, for instance, will ride Chan hard and put him away wet. Chan in team SP, Chan in team LP, Chan in individual. Two gold medals for Canada!
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-28-2013 at 09:52 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ? Why is it an advantage to have your best guy skate once and your second best guy skate once, instead of your best guy skating twice? The point is to win as many medals as possible, not to spread the love.

    Canada, for instance, will ride Chan hard and put him away wet. Chan in team SP, Chan in team LP, Chan in individual. Two gold medals for Canada!
    This! Plus there is too much Russian federation caring about plushenko personal story and not what's best for Russia in Sochi. If kovtun is at COr sp level at Russ nats or euros he's there in Sochi. Or plushenko is there for both. Kovtun is absolutely not going to play along with leaving the individual event ! Ever! He's got tarasova to prevent the Russian fed from punishing him.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ? Why is it an advantage to have your best guy skate once and your second best guy skate once, instead of your best guy skating twice? The point is to win as many medals as possible, not to spread the love.

    Canada, for instance, will ride Chan hard and put him away wet. Chan in team SP, Chan in team LP, Chan in individual. Two gold medals for Canada!
    Chan himself doesn't mind doing the Team Event followed by the Individual Event. Many other skaters don't feel this way. In the case of Plushenko, it may be dangerous to make him compete 4 times in 6 days given the state of his health, not to mention fatigue and stamina issue. The last thing you want is to see him getting injured completing a program, therefore, forfeiting either the points in Men's category completely or forced to withdraw during the individual event, which will become a sad way to end your career on home ice. Other skaters simply excel in SP vs. FS or vice versa. For example, Hanyu may be an excellent choice for Japan in SP but in FS, well, not so much. He has not even scored higher than 82 at any ISU event this year for PCS during FS. However, another Japanese man may be more suitable. Therefore, using Chan is a bad example because few skaters are as dominant as he is, which makes sense that he does both segments. Take Pairs for example, it is so close to the individual events that many top pairs, especially the Germans are reticent about participating. But if they don't take part, it may look bad. I wouldn't be surprised if Germany will use S/S for SP only because Germany doesn't have much of a shot at medals anyway but used their #2 Pair for FS, if they make it into the top 5. On the other hand, Canada will likely split their Pairs Team event equally between its top 2 pairs given that they are pretty even and you don't want either of them to be too tired for the individual event right after.

  5. #80
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    ... The last thing you want is to see him getting injured completing a program, therefore, forfeiting either the points in Men's category completely or forced to withdraw during the individual event, which will become a sad way to end your career on home ice.
    Abusing the rules would be a sad way to end your career on home ice.

  6. #81
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Yes but it is not any abusement of rules to withdraw a skater due to injury. It has happened before. They have the right.
    I believe too RF will send Kovtun to individuals and Plushy in the team, unless Plushy scores really well in Team. That way Evgeni will end his career with a Team Russia medal and Kovtun will skate and have the experience for 2018. I m sure they will do sth like this, cause how many times one skater can peak in 8 days?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You can substitute if a skater is injured, which is what many suspect the Russian federation will orchestrate... as in Kovtun or Plushenko skates in the team event, and after that event is over, they cite "injury" allowing the other one to compete in the individual event.
    I know, I said that, I was replying to this
    But I think he should substitute Plushenko for the team event.
    If Plushenko gets 'injured' and Kovtun is the substitute in the team event then he will do individuals too, meaning Kovtun will do all competition.
    So whats the reason for Plush to even go in Sochi if he is replaced from Team event?
    Last edited by seniorita; 11-29-2013 at 02:56 AM.

  7. #82
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Yes but it is not any abusement of rules to withdraw a skater due to injury. It has happened before. They have the right.
    I stand by my previous post.
    As discussed above, the rules dictate that based on its results at 2013 Worlds, Russia is entitled to one man in the individual competition for the discipline and that it is only the same man who is eligible to compete in the team event.
    The hypothetical scenario envisioned by wallylutz and CSG in this thread is that Russia would decide in advance to make a spurious claim that a skater is injured -- with the sole purpose of circumventing the rules as to who competes in the individual and team events.
    Such deception and manipulation absolutely would be abuse of the rules. Totally indefensible abuse.

    And such abuse would be unprecedented. 2014 is the first time the Olympics will have the team skating competition.

  8. #83
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I dont understand the abusement, if the rules say you can replace an injured skater, and a skater claims injury, the doctors confirm he/she is injured what is the problem? Hypothetically Russia would decide in advance means nothing to me, will they apply in advance? No. Thats a pure speculation point written on the board just. I dont know what is going on behind any door of any Federation.
    If during Olympcs Plushenko or whoever gets injured and asks for a substite, they have the right of replacement. If you believe he is truly injured or not, it is not their problem. They have the right of replacement in case of injury regardless of the spots they have.
    Did Usa abused the rules for replacing Michael Kwan in 2006? I dont think so.

  9. #84
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    ... Did Usa abused the rules for replacing Michael Kwan in 2006? I dont think so.
    Kwan's withdrawal (and replacement) vs. the notion of a Plushenko/Kovtun bait-and-switch is a case of comparing apples and oranges.

    Point A:
    - I have no problem with a skater who withdraws because of a legitimate injury. But that is not the situation that some of us have been discussing in this thread.

    Point B:
    - Team skating medals were not at stake at the 2006 Olympics.

    Point C:
    - The injured Kwan had not yet competed at the 2006 Games when she was replaced.
    - The hypothetical scenario that others put forward in this thread is that as a premeditated strategy, a Russian man would fake an injury after competing in the SP (or SP and FS) of the Olympic team competition.

  10. #85
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    A claim that Plushenko is injured would not be spurious or fake: he's had multiple health issues and surgeries and I imagine that he deals with pain and minor injuries constantly. It would just be a matter of drawing the line at a specific point. I for one hope he can compete in the team event, and also hope that he does not overdo it and cause himself significant long-term problems.

    Personally I think it's really unfair that the team event skaters have to be the same ones who'd compete in the individual events. It puts some skaters at a distinct disadvantage.

  11. #86
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    So I don't know about this, what is correct rule for putting in 2nd skater because injury? Can it happen during team event or only after it with only one spot?

  12. #87
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    A claim that Plushenko is injured would not be spurious or fake: he's had multiple health issues and surgeries and I imagine that he deals with pain and minor injuries constantly. It would just be a matter of drawing the line at a specific point. I for one hope he can compete in the team event, and also hope that he does not overdo it and cause himself significant long-term problems. ...
    I am aware that Plushenko has a history of injuries.
    But if he is healthy enough to compete in the team SP (or SP/FS), but then claims injury that prevents him from competing in the individual men's events, any reasonable person might feel unsure of his veracity -- given the advantageous repercussions of replacing him with Kovtun at that point.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    But if he is healthy enough to compete in the team SP (or SP/FS), but then claims injury that prevents him from competing in the individual men's events, any reasonable person might feel unsure of his veracity -- given the advantageous repercussions of replacing him with Kovtun at that point.
    Advantageous to whom? To Kovtun? Certainly Russia won't get a medal out of him.

    It would be perfectly reasonable to say after the team event that Plushenko has aggravated an injury or that his body can't take another competition without almost no recovery time. I personally would find it completely believable for him to WD from any event, at any time. The man is an amazing competitor, but he's held up by tape, strings, and sheer force of will.

  14. #89
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Advantageous to whom? To Kovtun? Certainly Russia won't get a medal out of him.

    It would be perfectly reasonable to say after the team event that Plushenko has aggravated an injury or that his body can't take another competition without almost no recovery time. I personally would find it completely believable for him to WD from any event, at any time. The man is an amazing competitor, but he's held up by tape, strings, and sheer force of will.
    I agree with that - what I think that golden411 has a problem with is the scenario in which it is planned in advance for Plushy not to do the individual event - rather than assessing the situation at the time of the event, and how he is feeling then. If that is so, then I agree with her.

    I do think, however, that this assumed pre-planned withdrawal - that has been extensively discussed in this thread and elsewhere, to the point that speculation is almost becoming "a truth universally acknowledged" (which is what happens when something is repeated often enough) - is "reckoning without the host", so to speak. And that is Plushy's personality and character.

    Myself, I don't see Plushy as being either that cynical... or that selfless.

    I doubt he has struggled with injuries and pain and all he has gone through these years just to finally aid in some Rus Fed power politics shenanigans.

    Or that he - if he still thinks himself capable of skating respectably - would benignly step aside in favour of giving the young'un a shot, giving Kovtun a fatherly - or grandfatherly? - pat on the head, saying: "Bless you, my child! Go forth and do what I cannot!" By respectable skate I mean clean skates with reasonably high technical content. He has said himself that if he does not feel himself up to it, he won't compete.

    Also, I think he wants to do the 4 skates and compete in the individual as well. If he is capable of this, only time will tell. Of course, this is only my assesment of his character - and the mileage of others may, and seemingly, do vary on this point.

    What does boggles my mind to the point of bafflement is, however, this.

    Do people really think that Plushy would give up in advance? Really?

  15. #90
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    I think that golden411 has a problem with is the scenario in which it is planned in advance for Plushy not to do the individual event - rather than assessing the situation at the time of the event, and how he is feeling then. If that is so, then I agree with her.
    Yes, I know what golden is saying. I disagree. My point is that Plushenko is already skating with various injuries/health concerns. He might have a couple of good programs in him, but not enough to skate both the team and individual. Under these circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to plan ahead of time to skate as much as his body can take - most likely, just the team event and perhaps only part of it - and then step aside because of his preexisting medical issues. I don't care if it's a firm plan, a tentative plan, or not a plan at all and just something that might arise. This is not faking an injury and there's nothing in it that runs contrary to the spirit of competition.

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