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Thread: Plushenko or Kovtun?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Personally I think it's really unfair that the team event skaters have to be the same ones who'd compete in the individual events. It puts some skaters at a distinct disadvantage.
    I have wondered about this. What do the skaters say? I bet a lot of them look forward to skating their hearts out in the team event, then coming back and doing it all over the next week in individual competition. Most sports are like that, with preliminary heats, different events within the discipline, one game after another in a tournament, etc.

  2. #92
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    About Michelle Kwan in 2006, in retrospect I think there was something a bit unsporting about the situation. It was quite obvious that Michelle would not be able to compete. Her last appearance that year, in December, was at a phone-in-the-vote cheesefest at which she could barely walk, much less skate. (She won anyway. )

    But the powers that be -- the USFSA, the USOC, network television, corporate sponsors such as Coca-Cola – had so much invested in her that she had to put her face in front of the cameras come hell or high water.

    Oh well. No harm, no foul.

  3. #93
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    ^I don't like team event to be before the individuals, otherwise they are many sports with prelim days during Olympic Games, but this is not Q round, it is a final. Yes gymnastics have it too, but there are multiple athletes for the team that might not be competing in individuals finals.

    I wonder if it is possible for a skater to peak twice in one week, the athletes that will target for individual medals will have their mind to reserve some strength for the next days, while athletes that don't have much chance otherwise can give everything for the team. Which is the great thing about team event, to give medals to skaters that are not so strong alone but would work in a team. I m afraid if it will affect individual competitions, it is sort of puzzling this concept debutes in Olympic Games.

    Finally all sports and athletes have a strategy, that changes even during ongoing competition, with a target to win or present well especially in the Games, in this sport it is more obvious since the federations have more power than athletes themselves
    Last edited by seniorita; 11-29-2013 at 03:01 PM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Such deception and manipulation absolutely would be abuse of the rules. Totally indefensible abuse.
    Oh, pleeeease...
    If the rules are stupid and inhuman, there is nothing wrong with abusing them. People who decided to place the team event before the individual, and then demand the same person to do everything, know nothing about skating and what skaters have to go through when performing. The LP is something different than a few seconds mechanical gymnastic routine.

  5. #95
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Suck it up, skaters. A beach volleyball match takes 1 to 2 hours. At the 2012 Games Misty May and Kerry Walsh played matches on July 28, July 30, August 1, August 3, August 5, August 7, and August 9. Michael Phelps…well, never mind.

    A skater can go 2:50 on Thursday and 4:30 on Saturday, and then do it again a week later. Dig deep.

  6. #96
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Yes, I know what golden is saying. I disagree. My point is that Plushenko is already skating with various injuries/health concerns. He might have a couple of good programs in him, but not enough to skate both the team and individual. Under these circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to plan ahead of time to skate as much as his body can take - most likely, just the team event and perhaps only part of it - and then step aside because of his preexisting medical issues. I don't care if it's a firm plan, a tentative plan, or not a plan at all and just something that might arise. This is not faking an injury and there's nothing in it that runs contrary to the spirit of competition.
    Oh, I expressed myself poorly - I should probably have said "if I understand golden correctly" - I did not mean to imply that you did not.

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    a 75% Plushy should still compete in Team then if he really cant take the toll then Kovtun can sub him.
    I think this is also the scenario that the Rus Fed is picturing

  8. #98
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Oh, I expressed myself poorly - I should probably have said "if I understand golden correctly" - I did not mean to imply that you did not.
    No, you were fine - I just wanted to emphasize that my response was based on disagreement with the argument made and not due to a misunderstanding.

  9. #99
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Wow, where to begin? I'll respond one more time, starting with the Olympic oath:

    In the name of all the competitors I promise that we shall take part in these Olympic Games, respecting and abiding by the rules which govern them, committing ourselves to a sport without doping and without drugs, in the true spirit of sportsmanship, for the glory of sport and the honour of our teams.”
    http://registration.olympic.org/en/faq/detail/id/28

    Where I come from, planning an injury and withdrawal would show disrespect for the rules, would violate the spirit of sportsmanship, and would bring dishonor to the team.

    BTW, I should have noted from the beginning that I am not a Plushenko hater. Like LRK, I hope that Plushenko himself is perfectly willing to skate four programs in Sochi. In fact, IIRC, he has said that he is game to do so.

    But if the Russian federation and Plushenko decide that they are immune from the rules, then it would only be fair to allow other feds and skaters to disregard them.
    So let' see ... China (like Russia) earned only one slot for the men's discipline, so why not allow China also to enter different men in the team and individual competitions? Would the same tactic of planning for a man to be injured be acceptable if China were the perpetrator?
    If Joannie Rochette decides that she wants to skate for Canada only in the team competition, why not allow her to do so?
    If Japan would like four of her men to skate in the individual competition -- and if the U.S. would like three -- why not allow them to do so?
    Etc., etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You can substitute if a skater is injured, which is what many suspect the Russian federation will orchestrate... as in Kovtun or Plushenko skates in the team event, and after that event is over, they cite "injury" allowing the other one to compete in the individual event.
    I neglected to say earlier that I have not seen the official rules regarding injury/substitution pertaining specifically to the new combination in Sochi of the team and individual events. CSG, do you have a link to a document that spells them out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Advantageous to whom? To Kovtun? Certainly Russia won't get a medal out of him.

    It would be perfectly reasonable to say after the team event that Plushenko has aggravated an injury or that his body can't take another competition without almost no recovery time. I personally would find it completely believable for him to WD from any event, at any time. The man is an amazing competitor, but he's held up by tape, strings, and sheer force of will.
    Others discussed the advantages to Russia and to Plushenko earlier in the thread.

    If Plushenko were to skate in the team competition, and Kovtun in the individual competition, then Plushenko would have a very good chance at a team medal without the responsibility of the individual competition. Plushenko would have the privilege and glory of representing Russia in the home Olympics without the perception of "bigfooting" young Kovtun and depriving him of the same privilege and glory. Medal or no medal, Kovtun would gain valuable Olympic experience and exposure that would be beneficial in his future career. Etc., etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    I agree with that - what I think that golden411 has a problem with is the scenario in which it is planned in advance for Plushy not to do the individual event - rather than assessing the situation at the time of the event, and how he is feeling then. If that is so, then I agree with her.

    I do think, however, that this assumed pre-planned withdrawal - that has been extensively discussed in this thread and elsewhere, to the point that speculation is almost becoming "a truth universally acknowledged" (which is what happens when something is repeated often enough) - is "reckoning without the host", so to speak. And that is Plushy's personality and character.

    Myself, I don't see Plushy as being either that cynical... or that selfless.

    I doubt he has struggled with injuries and pain and all he has gone through these years just to finally aid in some Rus Fed power politics shenanigans.

    Or that he - if he still thinks himself capable of skating respectably - would benignly step aside in favour of giving the young'un a shot, giving Kovtun a fatherly - or grandfatherly? - pat on the head, saying: "Bless you, my child! Go forth and do what I cannot!" By respectable skate I mean clean skates with reasonably high technical content. He has said himself that if he does not feel himself up to it, he won't compete.

    Also, I think he wants to do the 4 skates and compete in the individual as well. If he is capable of this, only time will tell. Of course, this is only my assesment of his character - and the mileage of others may, and seemingly, do vary on this point.

    What does boggles my mind to the point of bafflement is, however, this.

    Do people really think that Plushy would give up in advance? Really?
    Thanks for the great post, LRK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Yes, I know what golden is saying. I disagree. My point is that Plushenko is already skating with various injuries/health concerns. He might have a couple of good programs in him, but not enough to skate both the team and individual. Under these circumstances, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to plan ahead of time to skate as much as his body can take - most likely, just the team event and perhaps only part of it - and then step aside because of his preexisting medical issues. I don't care if it's a firm plan, a tentative plan, or not a plan at all and just something that might arise. This is not faking an injury and there's nothing in it that runs contrary to the spirit of competition.
    Yikes. I agree to strongly disagree.
    I really hope that Plushenko will not stoop to the level of flouting the rules. He is a champion, and fair play should mean something to him -- even if it means nothing to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by itoja View Post
    Oh, pleeeease...
    If the rules are stupid and inhuman, there is nothing wrong with abusing them. People who decided to place the team event before the individual, and then demand the same person to do everything, know nothing about skating and what skaters have to go through when performing. The LP is something different than a few seconds mechanical gymnastic routine.
    If any athlete is unwilling to abide by the rules, then s/he cannot take the Olympic oath in good faith and should not compete in the Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I have wondered about this. What do the skaters say? I bet a lot of them look forward to skating their hearts out in the team event, then coming back and doing it all over the next week in individual competition. Most sports are like that, with preliminary heats, different events within the discipline, one game after another in a tournament, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Suck it up, skaters. A beach volleyball match takes 1 to 2 hours. At the 2012 Games Misty May and Kerry Walsh played matches on July 28, July 30, August 1, August 3, August 5, August 7, and August 9. Michael Phelps…well, never mind.

    A skater can go 2:50 on Thursday and 4:30 on Saturday, and then do it again a week later. Dig deep.
    Thanks for your good points, Mathman. Strongly agree. Some skaters indeed have said that they are excited to compete for a team medal as well as an individual medal.
    And Michael Phelps is a terrific example of competing in numerous heats -- and in both individual and relay events. And he has done so at three different Olympics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    About Michelle Kwan in 2006, in retrospect I think there was something a bit unsporting about the situation. It was quite obvious that Michelle would not be able to compete. Her last appearance that year, in December, was at a phone-in-the-vote cheesefest at which she could barely walk, much less skate. (She won anyway. )

    But the powers that be -- the USFSA, the USOC, network television, corporate sponsors such as Coca-Cola – had so much invested in her that she had to put her face in front of the cameras come hell or high water.

    Oh well. No harm, no foul.
    I don't think anything was unsporting on the actual field of play. "Unsporting" only in terms of marketing, I would say.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Where I come from...

    .... I don't think anything was unsporting on the actual field of play. "Unsporting" only in terms of marketing, I would say.
    I see, where you come from you like to have big words on your mouth, but see nothing wrong in lying for money...

    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    So let' see ... China (like Russia) earned only one slot for the men's discipline, so why not allow China also to enter different men in the team and individual competitions? Would the same tactic of planning for a man to be injured be acceptable if China were the perpetrator?
    If Joannie Rochette decides that she wants to skate for Canada only in the team competition, why not allow her to do so?
    If Japan would like four of her men to skate in the individual competition -- and if the U.S. would like three -- why not allow them to do so?
    Etc., etc.
    Looks like after writing your first two examples you have catch how much better the event would be if that would be allowed, so you had to come up with the third, ridiculous argument

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411
    I neglected to say earlier that I have not seen the official rules regarding injury/substitution pertaining specifically to the new combination in Sochi of the team and individual events. CSG, do you have a link to a document that spells them out?
    I couldn't find it on the ISU site or by Google, but I have a copy -- it's Annex A to a document called "Qualification system for XX!! Olympic Winter Games, Sochi 2014. It is not quite as clear as it might be, but I am quite sure that the language allows a National Federation with only one slot to have an alternate on standby. If the main guy has to withdraw because of injury the alternate can skate. I think this could occur between the short program and the long program of the team event and also between the team event and the individual events. (There are some rules about informing the officials in a timely way, etc.)

    The injured skater must submit doctors reports outlining the history of the injury, recommendations for treatment, etc.

    As far as i can tell, it would not be a technical violation of the rules for Plushenko to go as long and as hard as he can, and then give way to Kovtun, citing injury. Any other country in the same position would also have that option, if they were so unfortunate to have their number one suffer an injury in the middle of the Games. (If a country has more than one spot, the injured skater must be replaced by one of the other qualified skaters -- unless the other guy is injured, too.)

    This does not address the question of sportsmanship. But anyway, this is us talking, not Plushenko. I think he will do everything he can. Here's what I hope happens. Plushenko skates in the team event and wins a medal. Then the Russian Federation says, OK, you remember the deal -- now you are supposed to withdraw with an injury, wink, wink. Plushenko says, up your nose, Piseev, bring on the individuals!

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Suck it up, skaters. A beach volleyball match takes 1 to 2 hours. At the 2012 Games Misty May and Kerry Walsh played matches on July 28, July 30, August 1, August 3, August 5, August 7, and August 9. Michael Phelps…well, never mind.

    A skater can go 2:50 on Thursday and 4:30 on Saturday, and then do it again a week later. Dig deep.
    You should bring something like Nadal-Djokovic AO Final
    Playing volleyball on a beach for 2 hours everyday?! That's what I do in the summer. And I swim too. Everyday. Maybe not as fast as Michael Phelps…

    Of course it's not a big deal for skaters like Patrick Chan. He is an automaton, it doesn't matter what and when he skates. I bet he would be happy to skate his POTO for his entire career.
    But the real masterful performances are not repeatable. Can you imagine Yagudin doing his Olympic LP over again a couple of days later? Or Hanyu repeating his 2012R&J performance?
    The real artists prepare themselves to give that one unforgettable performance, where every emotion, every little nuance matters. They bare they souls out there and leave everything they got on the ice. You can't repeat that a couple of days later, you just can't.

  13. #103
    Celebrating the Excellence of #VirtueMoir golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I couldn't find it on the ISU site or by Google, but I have a copy -- it's Annex A to a document called "Qualification system for XX!! Olympic Winter Games, Sochi 2014. It is not quite as clear as it might be, but I am quite sure that the language allows a National Federation with only one slot to have an alternate on standby. If the main guy has to withdraw because of injury the alternate can skate. I think this could occur between the short program and the long program of the team event and also between the team event and the individual events. (There are some rules about informing the officials in a timely way, etc.)

    The injured skater must submit doctors reports outlining the history of the injury, recommendations for treatment, etc. ...
    Thanks, MM. I hope to see the original text of the pertinent rules some day -- esp. the language regarding injury/withdrawal after a skater already has competed in the team event.
    I do have a copy of "Qualification System for XXII Olympic Winter Games, Sochi 2014." It is a 12-page PDF, and I have looked through it many times over the past months. The title of Annex A (which begins on page 5) is "Olympic Figure Skating Team Event." But I see nothing in the Annex or in the entire document that addresses the subject of injury.

  14. #104
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    On the version that I have Annex A starts on page four. The specific part about replacement skaters is in bold, so I assume that this is a revision to an earlier version. Here is the section in full. It is somewhat opaque and does not specifically mention a skater withdrawing after the team event and before the individual contests. But the spirit of the whole section pretty clearly allows that possibility, IMO.
    3.3 Withdrawals & Alternate Skaters/Couples procedure

    Nominated Skaters/Couples unable to compete due to injury/illness or other accepted serious reasons in any segment of the Figure Skating Team Event, the concerned NOC/ISU Member may replace the concerned Skater/Couple by a named Alternate Skater/Couple.

    For NOCs/ISU Members having 2 or 3 Skaters/Couples competing in an individual OWG competition/discipline, the concerned NOC/ISU Member must replace the injured Skater/Couple by another Alternate Skater/Couple present and accredited on site of the OWG unless such Alternate Skater/Couple is also confirmed to be unable to compete.

    For NOCs/ISU Member who have no available Alternate Skaters/Couples on site and accredited at the OWG, Stand-by Skaters/Couples to travel to the site of the OWG are accepted as per the IOC guidelines and time-lines.

    If an entered Skater or Couple is unable to compete, he/she/they must immediately inform the Organizing Committee and the ISU Secretariat (respectively during the OWG the ISU Technical Delegates) in writing through the respective NOC/ISU Member. The concerned Qualified NOC/ISU Member must ensure that the Alternate Skater/Couple nominated shall be allowed to attend.

    The Stand-by Skaters/Couples who are not on site and not accredited at the OWG must remain on stand-by until the deadlines defined under paragraph 3.2.1 above. These Stand-by Skaters/Couples are responsible to keep readily available their own necessary Olympic accreditation and possibly the travel documents.

    Withdrawals permitted for illness or injury must be duly confirmed by a timely Medical Certificate as outlined below and subject to review by an ISU appointed Medical Doctor and/or for other justified serious reasons accepted by the IOC/ISU.

    In the case an entered Skater/Couple is withdrawn for injury or illness a Medical Certificate is required to be submitted to the ISU. The Certificate must be issued on the official withdrawal form and duly signed by the Medical Doctor. If the certificate is not in English a translation signed by an Official of the NOC of the respective Skater must be attached.

    In addition, upon request of the ISU the Certificate must be received by the ISU within 72 hours after the notice of withdrawal and the following information must be included or attached:

    i) the history which clearly indicates the date of injury or date of onset of illness, the type of injury or illness and severity of injury or illness as well as the physical findings on examination;

    ii) copies of laboratory or radiological reports that were conducted in the investigation of the injury/illness;
    Original version: English ISU/FS/December 2011/ page 8/11

    iii) the recommended treatment by the physician including medications, therapy, advice on training frequency and intensity, date for follow-up examination ( a copy of this assessment should then be forwarded to the ISU), expected date of return to full activity, planned further investigations and/or criteria for return to full activity.

  15. #105
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    A very simplistic post. I've never been a Plushy fan. Didn't want to see him back in 2010. Don't want to see him back in 2014. So it's Kovtun for me.

    But, of course, the Russian Federation will send him if he is "healthy."

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