Unusually good or bad performances, and reasons given

LiamForeman · Nov 30, 2013

Weir and Sandhu have their similarities. But Sandhu wasn't as technically sound, and I don't think had the secure edging that Weir had. I can understand Sandhu being upset about 98, but he carried that for far too long. He should have been happy with his performance at his first senior Nationals and gone on from there. Weir was frustrating because he did not skate "smart". It seemed he was always leaving a jumping pass on the table, not doing a 3 jump combo, not maximizing his spins, etc.

Bobek injured herself right before or during her Nationals exhibition IIRC. She was off the ice for too long and couldn't regain her fitness. She was always crash-training and it appeared crash-dieting, so once she backed off her training the weight started coming back on. She was noticeably heavier in Nagano than in Philly. I suppose I wouldn't have expected her to give up her place on the team, but it was pretty sad how the Campbell's soup girls were touted for a possible sweep and Bobek ended up in like 18th place. Sad.

coppertop1 · Nov 30, 2013

LiamForeman said:
Weir and Sandhu have their similarities. But Sandhu wasn't as technically sound, and I don't think had the secure edging that Weir had. I can understand Sandhu being upset about 98, but he carried that for far too long. He should have been happy with his performance at his first senior Nationals and gone on from there. Weir was frustrating because he did not skate "smart". It seemed he was always leaving a jumping pass on the table, not doing a 3 jump combo, not maximizing his spins, etc.

I totally agree about Sandhu keeping that anger far too long. I don't blame him one bit for being angry at that time, but as you said he should be happy with how he did at his first senior's and focused on Worlds. To keep the anger in for as long as he did and blame 98 on most of his failures is ridiculous. Dude, it was eight years ago. Get over it. I think we should have sent the third skater, no matter who it was. Canada had three berths and we wasted it. Life goes on, and it doesn't do himself any favours when he held onto it. His artistic temperament is what made him so inconsistent. It was really frustrating to watch him wow everyone one day then tank the next. I remember when he was 16th in 2007, I told my Mom and she just looked at me and said "You aren't serious?" I'm like yeah, I am. IMO, he needed a good helping of tough love. I wonder what went through Joanne McLeod's head watching him.

Weir was wonderful to watch, but yeah, the mental aspect of the sport was his problem, he wasn't focused. When he was on, he was brilliant. Always entertaining, though

Bobek injured herself right before or during her Nationals exhibition IIRC. She was off the ice for too long and couldn't regain her fitness. She was always crash-training and it appeared crash-dieting, so once she backed off her training the weight started coming back on. She was noticeably heavier in Nagano than in Philly. I suppose I wouldn't have expected her to give up her place on the team, but it was pretty sad how the Campbell's soup girls were touted for a possible sweep and Bobek ended up in like 18th place. Sad.

Ahh, OK.
I do think the sweep was maybe a bit over-hyped, there was a lot of skaters to beat for the bronze but it was possible. Sad was the only way to describe it. Nicole had so much natural talent but not the discipline needed. She did skate better than Kwiatkowski at the US nationals so she did earn her spot. Sometimes the most gifted skaters aren't the most disciplined.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

coppertop1 said:
(Re Eman) His artistic temperament is what made him so inconsistent. It was really frustrating to watch him wow everyone one day then tank the next. I remember when he was 16th in 2007, I told my Mom and she just looked at me and said "You aren't serious?" I'm like yeah, I am. IMO, he needed a good helping of tough love. I wonder what went through Joanne McLeod's head watching him.

I always thought it was McLeod who was bringing him down. I so wanted him to get a coach that would tell him to STOP being a diva and be an athlete. (Also same with Weir) Eman and the Mira-cle were McLeod's for better or worse. I never understood it. It was like a learned helplessness thing. They never got away from her. Inexplicable.

Also, this 'artistic temperament' doesn't hold up for me. I have an artistic temperament. I sing, dance, paint, write and am sharp as a tack on all these things. Artistic temperament to me just means a spoiled diva. Any person with an artistic temperament would pull out than keep on giving one bad performance after another. I understand it, the desire for perfection, but lack of perfection does not excuse bailing out on everything.

spread beagle · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
I have an artistic temperament. I sing, dance, paint, write and am sharp as a tack on all these things. Artistic temperament to me just means a spoiled diva.

So logic concludes you are spoiled diva? :laugh:

phaeljones · Dec 1, 2013

Poodlepal said:
. . .

So I was thinking, what are some other reasons given for someone's bad skate? I was thinking of a few examples. (Note: I have no idea how true these reasons are, they are just things I heard from various sources)

. . .
Tonya--skate fell off/became untied (yeah, don't know if I believe it, either)
. . .

Poodlepal, I really felt nostalgic reading your listing of all the classic stories, and they jarred my memory in a nice way of a skater I really loved in the 90's (for her great skating when she was on) but who always seemed to have performance anxiety at the big international events. I am meaning Josée Chouinard. I will never forget her having to skate directly after Tonya Harding at the 1994 Olympics. The lace incident totally threw her and the ice became a magnet for her bum.

Olympia · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
I always thought it was McLeod who was bringing him down. I so wanted him to get a coach that would tell him to STOP being a diva and be an athlete. (Also same with Weir) Eman and the Mira-cle were McLeod's for better or worse. I never understood it. It was like a learned helplessness thing. They never got away from her. Inexplicable.

Also, this 'artistic temperament' doesn't hold up for me. I have an artistic temperament. I sing, dance, paint, write and am sharp as a tack on all these things. Artistic temperament to me just means a spoiled diva. Any person with an artistic temperament would pull out than keep on giving one bad performance after another. I understand it, the desire for perfection, but lack of perfection does not excuse bailing out on everything.

Agreed. Artistry doesn't mean lack of discipline or behavioral skills.

One thing that sticks in my mind is that Nationals (IIRC) where Johnny Weir came out, skated for about five seconds, and suddenly left the ice, never to come back. It took me years to trust him after that.

Buttercup · Dec 1, 2013

Brian Joubert has said that he knew before the Vancouver Olympics that he wasn't ready and that in hindsight he shouldn't have competed there. but who can WD from the Olympics without any real reason? Nobody.

Lulu's bad SP at 1997 Worlds has been attributed to injury. Nobunari Oda's SP disaster at 2010 Worlds has been linked to him being stressed over his girlfriend (now wife) discovering that she was pregnant.

Johar said:
Sandhu once blamed a ghost in his hotel room for his bad performance.

Complaining about hotel ghosts is not unprecedented in sports. There's a hotel in Milwaukee that's supposedly haunted and lots of MLB players have complained about it. Some refuse to stay there or sleep with their bats. But a skater would be defenseless

Skater Boy · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
Weir and Sandhu have their similarities. But Sandhu wasn't as technically sound, and I don't think had the secure edging that Weir had. I can understand Sandhu being upset about 98, but he carried that for far too long. He should have been happy with his performance at his first senior Nationals and gone on from there. Weir was frustrating because he did not skate "smart". It seemed he was always leaving a jumping pass on the table, not doing a 3 jump combo, not maximizing his spins, etc.

Bobek injured herself right before or during her Nationals exhibition IIRC. She was off the ice for too long and couldn't regain her fitness. She was always crash-training and it appeared crash-dieting, so once she backed off her training the weight started coming back on. She was noticeably heavier in Nagano than in Philly. I suppose I wouldn't have expected her to give up her place on the team, but it was pretty sad how the Campbell's soup girls were touted for a possible sweep and Bobek ended up in like 18th place. Sad.

So it was too much Campbell's soup that kind of caused Bobek to bomb, hmmm....weight always the weight.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

phaeljones said:
Poodlepal, I really felt nostalgic reading your listing of all the classic stories, and they jarred my memory in a nice way of a skater I really loved in the 90's (for her great skating when she was on) but who always seemed to have performance anxiety at the big international events. I am meaning Josée Chouinard. I will never forget her having to skate directly after Tonya Harding at the 1994 Olympics. The lace incident totally threw her and the ice became a magnet for her bum.

Another story in Canadian lore... If you time it, Chouinard maybe was on the ice 30 seconds before she should have been. If 30 seconds would throw her off that much, she wasn't much of an athlete or anything, really. Curiously, she did the exact same program, also with three falls, later at Worlds a few weeks after. No Harding to blame there.

coppertop1 · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
I always thought it was McLeod who was bringing him down. I so wanted him to get a coach that would tell him to STOP being a diva and be an athlete. (Also same with Weir) Eman and the Mira-cle were McLeod's for better or worse. I never understood it. It was like a learned helplessness thing. They never got away from her. Inexplicable.

I'm with you. It seems McLeod's students have never been able to break through. Sandhu needed some tough love. A coach who would tell him "Quit blaming 1998, get it together and learn to be an athlete and a competitor or we're through." Like Frank Carroll or John Nicks.
Mira was a strange case, she seemed the opposite of Sandu, disciplined and focused though her jumping technique was strange and her artistry did lack. She fired Joanne McLeod several times and went back to her, judging from some comments here, it was a lot to do with her mother who was an overbearing skating mom. She had promise then fell off the map completely. On the flip side, Canadian teenage sensation, Nam Nguyen used to train with Joanne McLeod, but he has changed to Brian Orser. A wise choice.

One thing I heard is McLeod does not believe in sports psychology which is why she didn't get one for Sandu (and he definitely needed one), though Sandu did work with one in 2005-06. What it comes down to, as Paul Martini said while commentating during Emanuel's LP at the 2006 Olympics, there comes a time you just need to take responsibility for yourself.

Also, this 'artistic temperament' doesn't hold up for me. I have an artistic temperament. I sing, dance, paint, write and am sharp as a tack on all these things. Artistic temperament to me just means a spoiled diva. Any person with an artistic temperament would pull out than keep on giving one bad performance after another. I understand it, the desire for perfection, but lack of perfection does not excuse bailing out on everything

Well, Sandhu sure acted like a spoiled diva. If the shoe fits. . .. It's not an excuse, I agree. Sandhu so often would miss the first two jumps and implode. He'd rather pop a jump than fall, though falling gives you partial marks, a single gets nothing.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

spread beagle said:
So logic concludes you are spoiled diva?

HAH! I was quickly typing, so I didn't recheck. Though I guess I could say at one point I have been a 'spoiled diva'. lol. What I meant was when people use 'artistic temperament' to explain away awfulness in a performance. Usually an artist with an intense mindset will not go out and fall four times. After one fall, it's doubles and a clean watered down program after. I've seen Eman skate so many times it is painful. You can tell when he gets stage fright. It's written all over him and his body doesn't move as smoothly. I particularly LURVE his 1998 Nationals freeskate, because he went for it and did it, before he had any expectations. That was the Sandhu I hoped to see from that point on, but nope. He was swallowed up in controversy and anger. Very disappointing.

coppertop1 · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
HAH! I was quickly typing, so I didn't recheck. Though I guess I could say at one point I have been a 'spoiled diva'. lol. What I meant was when people use 'artistic temperament' to explain away awfulness in a performance. Usually an artist with an intense mindset will not go out and fall four times. After one fall, it's doubles and a clean watered down program after. I've seen Eman skate so many times it is painful. You can tell when he gets stage fright. It's written all over him and his body doesn't move as smoothly. I particularly LURVE his 1998 Nationals freeskate, because he went for it and did it, before he had any expectations. That was the Sandhu I hoped to see from that point on, but nope. He was swallowed up in controversy and anger. Very disappointing.

I know, I waited for Sandhu to have that breakthrough. I saw him at nationals in 1998 and thought "WOW! This one is going places, he's gonna be something special with some more time and experience." He handled himself will in 1998, he didn't make excuses when he tanked at Worlds, though all the focus on him would be distracting for an inexperienced skater, so then it was understandable. Not an excuse years later. He lost his class and became entitled. I remember in 1999-00, he was second at Canadians but instead of deciding to send him, Skate Canada decided to have a skate off between him and Ben Ferreira at the 4CC, whoever finished higher there went to Worlds. McLeod said it was "another trial for Emanuel" or something like that, but I wonder if it was SC sending Sandhu a message: "We know how much potential you have but internationally, you are yet to prove yourself, you are not the option to send to Worlds as the second male" Ferreira was usually pretty consistent.

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
Another story in Canadian lore... If you time it, Chouinard maybe was on the ice 30 seconds before she should have been. If 30 seconds would throw her off that much, she wasn't much of an athlete or anything, really. Curiously, she did the exact same program, also with three falls, later at Worlds a few weeks after. No Harding to blame there.

I agree with you that it probably wasn't outcome determinative, but I do sympathize with her because training for years for your moment on the big stage, you do hope everything lines up for you to give the best performance.

noskates · Dec 1, 2013

Josee was beautiful to watch on the ice but I never had confidence that she would skate clean. She was just one of those skaters - like Sasha Cohen - that it was just a matter of time before she fell or doubled a triple or something to undermine what would otherwise be a great skate.

I do agree with pretty much everything said here about Eman. And without knowing too much about Mcleod, I think the guy needed some tough love for sure. If he really was using the excuse that he was still mad about a previous skate and judgement, then he need a swift kick in the posterior and a "come to Jesus" talk. All that talent and hardly ever when it counted. It's just like Jeremy Abbott. What does it take to get these guys to forget their heads and just concentrate on their skates!!

My son has a very good friend who is a sports psychologist and teaching pro in Northern California. I've had discussions with her many times about "the mind of a skater!" She said the most successful skaters are the ones that go out on the ice and somehow just get into a zone where they don't hear anything but their music and they don't think about anything except what comes next in their programs. She said you can almost see it in a skater's eyes when they take that first pose before the music starts and she used Patrick Chan and Jeremy Abbott as examples. Patrick goes out, strikes his pose, closes his eyes a few times and takes a deep breath and you just know. Jeremy has that "deer in the headlights" look and is almost twitching when he strikes his beginning pose. Then if he flubs his first quad.......wrap it up. It's over.

dorispulaski · Dec 1, 2013

At Worlds 2003, there was a fire alarm and evacuation of a hotel in the middle of the night. Several skaters blamed bad results on that, AFAIR.

Poodlepal · Dec 1, 2013

Emmanuel Sandhu! I remember him, but didn't really know that much about him, he was just a guy from Canada who never won much but was always around. Everybody has such fond or not-so-fond memories of him.

I remember some coach complaining that Emmanuel and Johnny weren't "real men" (or something like that) like the Brians were. I know exactly what he meant. Brian Boitano and Brian Orser were competitors, they weren't an inch away from a meltdown the way Johnny and Emmanuel always were.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

Poodlepal said:
I remember some coach complaining that Emmanuel and Johnny weren't "real men" (or something like that) like the Brians were. I know exactly what he meant. Brian Boitano and Brian Orser were competitors, they weren't an inch away from a meltdown the way Johnny and Emmanuel always were.

That is awful, yet kind of hysterical. Not one of those four men would be considered a 'real man' by this jerk! lol. Who was the coach, btw? Evy?

drivingmissdaisy · Dec 1, 2013

noskates said:
My son has a very good friend who is a sports psychologist and teaching pro in Northern California. I've had discussions with her many times about "the mind of a skater!" She said the most successful skaters are the ones that go out on the ice and somehow just get into a zone where they don't hear anything but their music and they don't think about anything except what comes next in their programs. She said you can almost see it in a skater's eyes when they take that first pose before the music starts and she used Patrick Chan and Jeremy Abbott as examples. Patrick goes out, strikes his pose, closes his eyes a few times and takes a deep breath and you just know. Jeremy has that "deer in the headlights" look and is almost twitching when he strikes his beginning pose. Then if he flubs his first quad.......wrap it up. It's over.

Patrick wins a lot but I think it's due to his otherworldly talent rather than being a strong competitor. When I watch him I don't feel at all confident he'll nail everything.

coppertop1 · Dec 1, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
Patrick wins a lot but I think it's due to his otherworldly talent rather than being a strong competitor. When I watch him I don't feel at all confident he'll nail everything.

I'm not confident about that even when a skater barely misses. Generally, I don't worry too much about Patrick. I do think he is a good competitor, most of the time. Another thing is he doesn't make excuses, and always looking to improve, even when he has been close to perfect.

I do agree with pretty much everything said here about Eman. And without knowing too much about Mcleod, I think the guy needed some tough love for sure. If he really was using the excuse that he was still mad about a previous skate and judgement, then he need a swift kick in the posterior and a "come to Jesus" talk. All that talent and hardly ever when it counted. It's just like Jeremy Abbott. What does it take to get these guys to forget their heads and just concentrate on their skates!!

Sandhu admitted to being bitter about 1998, in a profile of him at the 2006 Olympics he said so. I agree he needed some tough love. That's why I think he needed a coach like Frank Carroll, who tells his skaters to look to themselves and not to blame others for a bad performance. Someone to tell him to shape up or ship out.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

coppertop1 said:
Sandhu admitted to being bitter about 1998, in a profile of him at the 2006 Olympics he said so. I agree he needed some tough love. That's why I think he needed a coach like Frank Carroll, who tells his skaters to look to themselves and not to blame others for a bad performance. Someone to tell him to shape up or ship out.

Since McLeod had Eman and the "Mira-cle" as her top students, I wonder what the heck she ever did for them???? Go to the big city, go to Toronto. Clean up your shortcomings. What did McLeod have that I have never understood?!?!?

Unusually good or bad performances, and reasons given

LiamForeman

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LiamForeman

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phaeljones

Olympia

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Skater Boy

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LiamForeman

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drivingmissdaisy

noskates

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