Unusually good or bad performances, and reasons given

amc987 · Dec 1, 2013

There is not a chance that Shizuka Arakawa would've won in Torino if Sasha Cohen and Irina Slutskaya had skated clean programs. I know that, in Cohen's case, having 2 mistakes in the LP wasn't a huge departure from the norm. Still, her R & J program was so beautiful that if she'd done 6 clean triples (and not fallen), she'd probably have won. Ditto Slutskaya, whose program was way less artistic but was technically superior to Shizuka's.

Also, Sarah Hughes's win in Salt Lake almost proves there is a God somewhere. The stars totally aligned for her that night. I think that's the only way to explain her victory.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

amc987 said:
Also, Sarah Hughes's win in Salt Lake almost proves there is a God somewhere. The stars totally aligned for her that night. I think that's the only way to explain her victory.

No, it proves there is no God. I was so outspokenly anti-Sarah back then. When SLC happened I had several Skatefans friends call me personally and apologize! Too funny. I liked the Ave Maria with those hunched shoulders and gangly arms though. Nice touch for a Jewish girl. Robin knew how to package, didn't she?

Poodlepal · Dec 1, 2013

There's no mystery about how Sarah won.
1. She was kept in 4th place after the short because she was the defending bronze medalist from the Worlds. Evgeny fell and was kept in 4th because of his reputation at that Olympics. There was a pair team that fell and was also kept up there. They were just not going to put a potential medalist back in 8th place or whatever, which would have put them out of contention with that method of judging. Maybe it wasn't fair, but it was consistent.

2. She skated a long program clean with no falls and no step-outs and completed a couple of triple-triples to the satisfaction of the judges.

Today, would she have won? Probably not. Probably Michelle would be declared superior in the "skating skills" department and could have fallen multiple times and still won. But back then, that's how they did it and she had the best long program that night in that she did what she was supposed to.

LiamForeman · Dec 1, 2013

IF ONLY Sasha landed her 3lutz-3toe............................................

amc987 · Dec 1, 2013

LiamForeman said:
No, it proves there is no God. I was so outspokenly anti-Sarah back then. When SLC happened I had several Skatefans friends call me personally and apologize! Too funny. I liked the Ave Maria with those hunched shoulders and gangly arms though. Nice touch for a Jewish girl. Robin knew how to package, didn't she?

Or that there is a God and He/She LOVES Sarah Hughes for whatever reason. I maintain that Sarah couldn't have won that night without divine intervention. She had never skated that well in competition before and she never skated that well at a competition again. Plus, being in 4th place after the short, she needed a lot of help from Michelle and Irina.

Now, if you want support for the God doesn't exist/ He or She hates us all theory, let's consider that Michelle Kwan never won an OGM. Her performance in Nagano would've been good enough to win in 92, 94, 02, and 06. She might even have won in 98 if she'd skated later in her group than Lipinski. Instead we have Baiul, Hughes, and Arakawa as Olympic champs and Kwan sans gold. It's unfortunate.

coppertop1 · Dec 1, 2013

*ahem* getting back on topic

Brian Joubert in 2006-- His old coach said he wasn't training enough

With regards to the infamous Tonya Harding skate lace debacle, things like that happened all the time it seemed, so I think when her skate lace broke people thought here we go again.

Seriously, let's keep the arguing to the minimum here. Sarah skated the best that night, Michelle and Irina did not. Sarah deserved her gold, and before that she was a competitor. She was the bronze medalist for a reason. Saying it was God or whatever is being pretty dismissive and bitter about Michelle not winning. It's sport, and surprise victories happen.

amc987 · Dec 2, 2013

coppertop1 said:
*ahem* getting back on topic

Brian Joubert in 2006-- His old coach said he wasn't training enough

With regards to the infamous Tonya Harding skate lace debacle, things like that happened all the time it seemed, so I think when her skate lace broke people thought here we go again.

Seriously, let's keep the arguing to the minimum here. Sarah skated the best that night, Michelle and Irina did not. Sarah deserved her gold, and before that she was a competitor. She was the bronze medalist for a reason. Saying it was God or whatever is being pretty dismissive and bitter about Michelle not winning. It's sport, and surprise victories happen.

I agree. Sarah skated the best performance that night. In fact, she skated her best ever. And she had a lot of necessary help from Michelle and Irina. I don't mean to dismiss her victory by saying there was divine intervention involved- the gold medal goes to the skater who is the best in that competition and, in Salt Lake, that was undoubtedly Sarah. I just mean that the odds of her performing that freely and cleanly and getting help from Michelle and Irina (and Sasha Cohen who really could've been 1 3T away from an OGM herself) were astronomical. 9 times out of 10 Sarah probably wouldn't have managed to come from 4th in the short to secure the upset. Hence, the (semi-serious) assertion that providence played a role in her OGM.

coppertop1 · Dec 2, 2013

OK then. Coming from 4th to 1st was difficult but not impossible under the old 6.0 system, Michelle actually did just that in the 1996 Grand Prix Final after Lu Chen fell apart, and was fourth. Maria Butyrskaya jumped from 5th in the LP to 1st at the 1998 Europeans and Urmanov jumped from sixth to first. Sarah. IMO, (yes this a cliche, I know), Sarah skated to win, whereas Michelle and Irina looked like they skated not to lose. Sasha was aggressive to go for it on the 3Lz-3T combo. I agree it's too bad Michelle didn't win, there could be a support club of athletes who win it all but the OGM. Had Michelle not fallen, I think she would have won, it was the fall that did her in.

TonyaHardlyEver · Dec 2, 2013

Sasha would have been on the podium in 2002 had she just doubled that triple toe on combination. I think it was a huge mistake for her to go for it especially since there was a serious lack of speed on the landing of the lutz that was also shaky. She came so close to having two clean programs.

TonyaHardlyEver · Dec 2, 2013

amc987 said:
I agree. Sarah skated the best performance that night. In fact, she skated her best ever. And she had a lot of necessary help from Michelle and Irina. I don't mean to dismiss her victory by saying there was divine intervention involved- the gold medal goes to the skater who is the best in that competition and, in Salt Lake, that was undoubtedly Sarah. I just mean that the odds of her performing that freely and cleanly and getting help from Michelle and Irina (and Sasha Cohen who really could've been 1 3T away from an OGM herself) were astronomical. 9 times out of 10 Sarah probably wouldn't have managed to come from 4th in the short to secure the upset. Hence, the (semi-serious) assertion that providence played a role in her OGM.

It was always something with Tonya! I think the broken lace was a way for her to skate last in that group so that Nancy would see her land those huge jumps. I wish Tonya would have gone for the triple axel especially since she was landing the consistently in practice right in front of Nancy's coaches no less!

Sara deserved her medal. It amazes me that some still debate the results and say that the combinations were under-rotated. What was Michelle's deal with the flip and her toe slipping out? That was a silly error. I would have put Sasha ahead of Michelle in the short program with Irina in first.

FlattFan · Dec 2, 2013

amc987 said:
There is not a chance that Shizuka Arakawa would've won in Torino if Sasha Cohen and Irina Slutskaya had skated clean programs. I know that, in Cohen's case, having 2 mistakes in the LP wasn't a huge departure from the norm. Still, her R & J program was so beautiful that if she'd done 6 clean triples (and not fallen), she'd probably have won. Ditto Slutskaya, whose program was way less artistic but was technically superior to Shizuka's.

Shizuka Arakawa landed 5 triples cleanly. Sasha Cohen landed 5 cleanly. Shiz beat her by almost 8 points.
If she's done 6 clean triples, what triple would it take to overcome 8 points? A triple axel?

Sasha even lost to Shizuka in spins. She's an inferior skating in every single aspect of skating, and if judged correctly, would be 20 points behind.

Slutskaya is no way superior to Shiz technically. Did you see Shiz's jumps? They are huge and have flow in and out. Again, if judged correctly, the other girls would have much lower GOE compare to Shiz.

People who saw Shiz live at Torino said she was so fast, and so smooth, and out league all of her competitors. No one came close.

FlattFan · Dec 2, 2013

In 2006, if they all skated like they had planned, Shizuka would still have won.

3x3 in the SP and 7 triples in the LP would be unbeatable.

Remember she beat both Slutskaya and Cohen in skating skills in the short program when all 3 were "clean"
I would expect her to pull away further in the LP had she skated cleanly and with 7 triples as planned.

CarneAsada · Dec 2, 2013

Unusually bad: Laetitia Hubert's 1992 Olympic FS.
Another one I can think of is Midori Ito at 1991 Worlds. Every time I start to feel sorry for Laetitia Hubert's Olympic experience, I remind myself of how she smashed into Midori before the SP and immediately get over it.

coppertop1 · Dec 2, 2013

CarneAsada said:
Unusually bad: Laetitia Hubert's 1992 Olympic FS.
Another one I can think of is Midori Ito at 1991 Worlds. Every time I start to feel sorry for Laetitia Hubert's Olympic experience, I remind myself of how she smashed into Midori before the SP and immediately get over it.

Wow, that's harsh. You make it sound like Laetitia did it on purpose. It was an accident. And no skater deserves to have that kind of performance at the Olympics.

CarneAsada · Dec 2, 2013

coppertop1 said:
Wow, that's harsh. You make it sound like Laetitia did it on purpose. It was an accident. And no skater deserves to have that kind of performance at the Olympics.

I view it like I view Kozuka's triple loop into Takahashi's back or Tonya Harding's Olympic boot problem. It doesn't diminish my respect for their abilities, but it diminishes the amount of pity I feel for their disasters, harsh as that might sound.

Buttercup · Dec 2, 2013

Hubert was a 17 year old skating in the final group at her home Olympics. It seems rather obvious that the pressure got to her. The 1991 collision with Ito was clearly an accident and to even suggest that she deserved some kind of karmic retribution for it is disgusting.

Skaters don't need your pity. But unless they purposely engage in unsportsmanlike or reckless behavior, they deserve respect and compassion. Nobody deserves to be hurt in a practice collision, nobody deserves to have the sort of LP Hubert did in 1992, and skaters don't deserve misfortune because you have decreed that they are fault for something. That's not being a fan, that's being a jerk.

coppertop1 said:
Brian Joubert in 2006-- His old coach said he wasn't training enough

Joubert has always attributed his disappointing showing in Torino to skating an LP that did not suit him (Lord of the Dance), and has said that one of his biggest regrets was not changing it to The Matrix earlier than he did; he skated very well at 2006 Worlds after going back to that program.

I'm not sure which coach said that, but I seriously doubt it was true.

CarneAsada · Dec 2, 2013

Buttercup said:
Hubert was a 17 year old skating in the final group at her home Olympics. It seems rather obvious that the pressure got to her. The 1991 collision with Ito was clearly an accident and to even suggest that she deserved some kind of karmic retribution for it is disgusting.

Skaters don't need your pity. But unless they purposely engage in unsportsmanlike or reckless behavior, they deserve respect and compassion.

I don't suggest that she deserved "karmic retribution" or that she deserved to skate like that. However, I don't feel as torn up about it as I might about Ito, who was prevented from winning one Olympic gold by figures and prevented from winning 2 worlds by a combination of unusual mistakes and accidents.

Skater Boy · Dec 2, 2013

drivingmissdaisy said:
I agree with you that it probably wasn't outcome determinative, but I do sympathize with her because training for years for your moment on the big stage, you do hope everything lines up for you to give the best performance.

Well actually yu forgot there is waiting for the score and all too. Josee was a nervous skater but unlike Manley she never conquered her nerves. Had she, she would have been another Rochette - athltetic yet she had great personality and charm.

Skater Boy · Dec 2, 2013

FlattFan said:
In 2006, if they all skated like they had planned, Shizuka would still have won.

3x3 in the SP and 7 triples in the LP would be unbeatable.

Remember she beat both Slutskaya and Cohen in skating skills in the short program when all 3 were "clean"
I would expect her to pull away further in the LP had she skated cleanly and with 7 triples as planned.

I believe looking at the history of the skaters that had Cohen and or Slutskaya had skated 6 triple clean long programs there is no issue they would have beaten Arakawa. Right or wrong both Cohen and Slutskaya would have been scored higher.

Tonichelle · Dec 2, 2013

Olympia said:
One thing that sticks in my mind is that Nationals (IIRC) where Johnny Weir came out, skated for about five seconds, and suddenly left the ice, never to come back. It took me years to trust him after that.

you mean the one where he fell and basically ripped his legs from his body on a botched landing of the 3A(?)? I think he had a real reason to skate off... he was obviously in pain. that whole men's LP was a mess.

Unusually good or bad performances, and reasons given

amc987

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam

Poodlepal

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam

amc987

coppertop1

amc987

coppertop1

TonyaHardlyEver

TonyaHardlyEver

FlattFan

Match Penalty

FlattFan

Match Penalty

CarneAsada

coppertop1

CarneAsada

Buttercup

CarneAsada

Skater Boy

Skater Boy

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

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