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Thread: Mao & Mr. Sato

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    I don't think so, despite people making such a big deal about jump techniques, some of the skaters who are considered to have text book techniques like Gao and Elizaveta are also some of the most inconsistent this season. I think a technique plays a big role, but so does other factors. But examples like Mao and Miki show that despite not always having had what is considered the most efficient technique, they were still exceptionally good jumpers, and Mao's jumps in particular also looked beautiful and effortless.

    Then there are examples like Kanako who's technique really isn't the most pleasing to see, but it works for her.
    Your argument with Miki is irrelevant since she actually has almost a textbook technique on every jump besides the flip. How can you even put Mao and Miki technique-wise in the same sentence? Miki's only problem was lipping but miraculously she was able to fix it which is extremely hard to do. Mao hasn't been able to fix her flutz and will most likely never do so. Proper technique in your jumps is essential in figure skating. As for Gao and Elizaveta, I think they are going through the changes in their body at the moment and this is the reason for their inconcistency. What their good jumping technique will do for them however is that after their body have gone through all the changes the jumps will stay with them, owing to great technique. Mao's terrible technique was sufficient, again, so long as her body was tiny but after she had grown she started to have tremendous jumping problems.

    Kanako is another invalid example. Her atrocious technique does not work for her apparently if you look at the protocols. She notoriously underrotates her jumps and if I remember correctly also get "e" on her lutzes.

  2. #32
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    In the last 10 years, the only one with perfect technique in every jump is Carolina Kostner.

    Perfect technique doesn't guarantee consistency, because she's still falling, stepping out all over the place.
    Perfect technique just guarantee potential.

  3. #33
    Tripping on the Podium penguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Perfect technique doesn't guarantee consistency, because she's still falling, stepping out all over the place.
    Perfect technique just guarantee potential.
    Yes, agreed. Nerves and other factors play a significant role. I'd say perfect technique doesn't ensure consistency, though it helps. But imperfect technique really sets you up for (maybe even almost guarantees) INconsistency.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by penguin View Post
    Yes, agreed. Nerves and other factors play a significant role. I'd say perfect technique doesn't ensure consistency, though it helps. But imperfect technique really sets you up for (maybe even almost guarantees) INconsistency.
    I dare say bad techniques can actually be counted on for consistency - of undesirable results.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    I don't think so, despite people making such a big deal about jump techniques, some of the skaters who are considered to have text book techniques like Gao and Elizaveta are also some of the most inconsistent this season. I think a technique plays a big role, but so does other factors. But examples like Mao and Miki show that despite not always having had what is considered the most efficient technique, they were still exceptionally good jumpers, and Mao's jumps in particular also looked beautiful and effortless.

    Then there are examples like Kanako who's technique really isn't the most pleasing to see, but it works for her.
    Gao has a textbook technique?
    She flutzes, her 2A is scary, 3F very iffy...
    Gao has lots of other lovely qualities to her skating but jumping technique is definitely not one of them.

    Liza is a completely different story, as is Miki after having fixed her flip.

  6. #36
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    In the last 10 years, the only one with perfect technique in every jump is Carolina Kostner.

    Perfect technique doesn't guarantee consistency, because she's still falling, stepping out all over the place.
    Perfect technique just guarantee potential
    .
    This simple point is what I have been trying to explain from the beginning.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by enzet View Post
    Gao has a textbook technique?
    She flutzes, her 2A is scary, 3F very iffy...
    Gao has lots of other lovely qualities to her skating but jumping technique is definitely not one of them.

    Liza is a completely different story, as is Miki after having fixed her flip.
    Not long ago every commentator was raging about how textbook Gao's jumps were, and as far as I know inconsistencies is not a very uncommon thing even for the skaters whom many posters scream textbook jumps about.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    Your argument with Miki is irrelevant since she actually has almost a textbook technique on every jump besides the flip. How can you even put Mao and Miki technique-wise in the same sentence? Miki's only problem was lipping but miraculously she was able to fix it which is extremely hard to do. Mao hasn't been able to fix her flutz and will most likely never do so. Proper technique in your jumps is essential in figure skating. As for Gao and Elizaveta, I think they are going through the changes in their body at the moment and this is the reason for their inconcistency. What their good jumping technique will do for them however is that after their body have gone through all the changes the jumps will stay with them, owing to great technique. Mao's terrible technique was sufficient, again, so long as her body tiny but after she had grown she started to have tremendous jumping problems.

    Kanako is another invalid example. Her atrocious technique does not work for her apparently if you look at the protocols. She notoriously underrotates her jumps and if I remember correctly also get "e" on her lutzes.
    I would never consider Miki's jumps as textbook, but if they are then I'm happy and extremely delighted that Mao doesn't use the same technique as her. I respect Miki as a great jumper, but her jumps were never really something I enjoyed, since the way she jumped felt forced and always made me nervous due to the hunched back. and you blaming all inconsistencies of elizaveta and Gao to a growspurt, doesn't change the fact they are very inconsistent despite having what some call a textbook jumping technique. Just like flattfan said, perfect jumping technique doesn't guarantee consistency, it never has and never will!

    Next time you and other posters begin to scream that this and that skater has textbook jumping technique, you should remember this; if the skater with the so called textbook technique, wasn't able to gain consistency nor great difficulty then this so called textbook technique is nothing more then useless

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by inskate View Post
    Just a quick reply before I leave:

    English is not my native language, so I apologize for not making myself clear.
    No apologies necessary, your English is great, and even native speakers find it difficult at times to understand each other's points and arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Would you like to nitpick over the definition of a legitimate disagreement, too? I think this back-and-forth has been a useful clarification for oversimplifications in the original post, as you don't seem to disagree with explanations of flaws in Mao's technique, or that raking one coach over the coals is unneeded, or with my final explanation of why early problems were overlooked. Hardly a disagreement or argument as we kept saying the same things. But thanks for adding a more detailed and nuanced explanation of the 6.0 situation.
    I didn't delve into the other issues because I didn't have the inclination to at that point in time, so alas, I have to point out that lack of commentary is not equal to agreement or endorsement. We'll have to leave it there for now. Peace out.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    I would never consider Miki's jumps as textbook, but if they are then I'm happy and extremely delighted that Mao doesn't use the same technique as her. I respect Miki as a great jumper, but her jumps were never really something I enjoyed, since the way she jumped felt forced and always made me nervous due to the hunched back. and you blaming all inconsistencies of elizaveta and Gao to a growspurt, doesn't change the fact they are very inconsistent despite having what some call a textbook jumping technique. Just like flattfan said, perfect jumping technique doesn't guarantee consistency, it never has and never will!

    Next time you and other posters begin to scream that this and that skater has textbook jumping technique, you should remember this; if the skater with the so called textbook technique, wasn't able to gain consistency nor great difficulty then this so called textbook technique is nothing more then useless
    What you're saying is ludicrous. Good technique is called "good" because it is good, not bad. And it does bring about plenty of desirable things for skaters. Carolina Kostner's inconsistency IS NOT caused by the fact that she has textbook technique. It is probably caused by some psychological problems or it can be actually anything but most definitely not her technique. There is loads of skaters who doesn't underrotate their jump and have good flow because they have good technique but it still doesn't mean that they cannot err. They can and they do, but if so, it is undoubtedly NOT spawned by their perfect technique.

    On the other hand, skaters who have bad technique always, sooner or later, have problems with their jumps. Wide range of different problems, namely flutzing, lipping, underrotation, lack of control, poor flow, inconsistency etc. You can take any skater with bad technique and you are bound to find some or all of those problems. Off the top of my head Mao, Yukari, Sarah Hughes, Kimmie Meissner, Kanako, Caroline Zhang etc. The list could be much longer if given more thought.

    You clearly cannot accept anything negative or critical said about Mao and try to repudiate that at all cost, to the point where you get confused with your own arguments. Firstly you put Miki in the same league with Mao, claiming that despite her having imperfect technique, her jumps has always looked effortless and beautiful, just like in the case of Mao - bad technique and yet good jumps. Now you use the same Miki Ando and admit that you've never enjoyed her jumps because they "felt forced". So, do they feel forced or are they beautiful and effortless? Stop using the same skaters to exemplify patently contradictory ideas.

    Apart from that, do you really consider Mao's terrible triple flip with mule kick and her body parallel to the ice at the take-off as beautiful? Let me tell you something, Mao's triple flip looks much better now and is certainly easier to control now. I am sure that most people would rather prefer Mao's current flip than her previous one with that atrocious technique, if I were to make a poll for example.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    Not long ago every commentator was raging about how textbook Gao's jumps were, and as far as I know inconsistencies is not a very uncommon thing even for the skaters whom many posters scream textbook jumps about.
    I think back in her Orser days, she did have good technique... a lot of times she reminded me of Kim.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartek View Post
    What you're saying is ludicrous. Good technique is called "good" because it is good, not bad. And it does bring about plenty of desirable things for skaters. Carolina Kostner's inconsistency IS NOT caused by the fact that she has textbook technique. It is probably caused by some psychological problems or it can be actually anything but most definitely not her technique. There is loads of skaters who doesn't underrotate their jump and have good flow because they have good technique but it still doesn't mean that they cannot err. They can and they do, but if so, it is undoubtedly NOT spawned by their perfect technique.

    On the other hand, skaters who have bad technique always, sooner or later, have problems with their jumps. Wide range of different problems, namely flutzing, lipping, underrotation, lack of control, poor flow, inconsistency etc. You can take any skater with bad technique and you are bound to find some or all of those problems. Off the top of my head Mao, Yukari, Sarah Hughes, Kimmie Meissner, Kanako, Caroline Zhang etc. The list could be much longer if given more thought.

    You clearly cannot accept anything negative or critical said about Mao and try to repudiate that at all cost, to the point where you get confused with your own arguments. Firstly you put Miki in the same league with Mao, claiming that despite her having imperfect technique, her jumps has always looked effortless and beautiful, just like in the case of Mao - bad technique and yet good jumps. Now you use the same Miki Ando and admit that you've never enjoyed her jumps because they "felt forced". So, do they feel forced or are they beautiful and effortless? Stop using the same skaters to exemplify patently contradictory ideas.

    Apart from that, do you really consider Mao's terrible triple flip with mule kick and her body parallel to the ice at the take-off as beautiful? Let me tell you something, Mao's triple flip looks much better now and is certainly easier to control now. I am sure that most people would rather prefer Mao's current flip than her previous one with that atrocious technique, if I were to make a poll for example.
    you are twisting my words, read my previous post, the ones whose jump I called beautiful and effortless was Mao not Miki.

    you also name these mistakes "namely flutzing, lipping, underrotation, lack of control, poor flow, inconsistency etc." as problems that supposedly occur on skaters who have bad technique, well if this is the case then there is no one in the world who has a good technique. because I can't think of one skater who doesn't occasionally suffer from these mistakes if not even bigger mistakes!

    as for Mao's previous flip, a side from the mule kick, she had good height, fast rotation, good air position with barely any preparation, and didn't require any real effort from her, so why shouldn't it be considered beautiful?

  13. #43
    Custom Title mary01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think back in her Orser days, she did have good technique... a lot of times she reminded me of Kim.
    They had the same coach so no wonder that their technique looks so similar

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mary01 View Post
    you are twisting my words, read my previous post, the ones whose jump I called beautiful and effortless was Mao not Miki.

    you also name these mistakes "namely flutzing, lipping, underrotation, lack of control, poor flow, inconsistency etc." as problems that supposedly occur on skaters who have bad technique, well if this is the case then there is no one in the world who has a good technique. because I can't think of one skater who doesn't occasionally suffer from these mistakes if not even bigger mistakes!

    as for Mao's previous flip, a side from the mule kick, she had good height, fast rotation, good air position with barely any preparation, and didn't require any real effort from her, so why shouldn't it be considered beautiful?
    "But examples like Mao and Miki show that despite not always having had what is considered the most efficient technique, they were still exceptionally good jumpers, and Mao's jumps in particular also looked beautiful and effortless." --> This is precisely what you said. I have not twisted your words, you praised Miki's jumps and said that Mao ALSO looked beautiful and effortless.

    Mao's old triple flip should not be considered "beautiful" simply beacuse it was ugly due to her terrible mule kick technique, swinging the right arm and bending her body down so that it was parallel to the ice. That's certainly ugly when compared to triple flips with perfect technique (e.g. Yu-Na Kim, Irina Slutskaya, Carolina Kostner). And she did need a whole ice rink to set it up as noticed by Kurt Browning in Mao's FS from 2009 4CC.

    The aforementioned problems occur to every skater, even those with perfect technique like Patrick Chan or Yu-Na Kim because they are all people which means that they all sometimes make mistakes. It's normal, to err is human, right? Nonetheless, people who have bad technique like Kanako or Caroline Zhang are way more prone to making those mistakes than the ones who have perfect technique. Just look at the protocls and you will hopefully notice that those skaters have much bigger problems with underrotation and concistency in general. Kanako's terrible technique spawn underrotation virtually in every program she skates. On the other hand, Patrick and Yu-Na hardly ever underrotate a jump.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
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    I wish one day i can open a thread without so much Mao negativity. What difference does her technique from the past made . By reading this board only people might think Mao is the most imperfect skater. And when her fans say something to defend her they are called crazy. Oh well.

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