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Thread: Men SP - 2013-14 Grand Prix Final

  1. #151
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Of course he would have a chance, if he were to skate perfectly. He has an 8.4 point base value advantage over Chan in the LP.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    It is hard to say for certain but the two times he was clean in the short he got 98 and change so that might have happened again. Or he might have topped 100, it is pretty impossible to say. Hanyu was clean in the short past and got 95 and change, but he wasnt in Japan on those occasions. I think the judges would be willing to possibly put a clean Chan behind Hanyu in the short. I said even last year I thought Hanyu had a chance of beating Chan in the short (although not certain to) if both were clean, and obviously would be more likely to happen in Japan than anywhere else. The long is a different story. I dont think Hanyu would have any chance to beat a clean Chan in the LP phase.
    I think a clean Chan in the short can beat a clean Hanyu. If Chan was clean yesterday, his score would've been 100+. However, a clean Hanyu can beat a clean Chan on the basis of TES Base Value advantage and GOE.

    That's just my two cents.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Becki View Post
    I think a clean Chan in the short can beat a clean Hanyu. If Chan was clean yesterday, his score would've been 100+. However, a clean Hanyu can beat a clean Chan on the basis of TES Base Value advantage and GOE.

    That's just my two cents.
    I didnt say a clean Chan in the short cant beat a clean Hanyu. Of course he can, he did easily a few weeks ago. I just think the reverse is also true, especialy in Japan. That was my only point. I dont think at all it is certain Chan was going to be given a 100+ when his spectacular SP at Worlds in CANADA (which is one of the 3 top countries in home cooked scores, along with Japan, and of course both behind the clear leader Russia) didnt even get that. Hanyu set a new SP WR so of course he has a chance vs anyone in the short. I think in the short both skating cleanly anything can happen, but in the long Chan would win for sure due to PCS (although if both skate a clean LP here I am pretty sure Hanyu will now win due to his short program gap).

  4. #154
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    That's one of the things that bothers me about skating. An outcome in a sport should never be influenced by location but that's skating for ya.

  5. #155
    D*mn Idiot KwanIsALegand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    Hanyu was great but imo over scored but we will see how the scoring is in the long.
    I think they sent Hanyu a message: keep it up and you'll be the next Chan?
    They were impressed that is for sure.

  6. #156
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    So i guess a skater popping his 4t to 3t couldn't do his perhaps planned 3lz+3t? Cause i don't remember seeing point deductions on such or perhaps there haven't been any..

    Also, how does the zayak rule work in the long? Is there more rules than max 2 same triples (one in a combo) and max 3 combos..? I can't remember the scores and skaters of those I didn't get the points (or loss of points)..

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I agree it's a bit ridiculous. That strange "zayak rule" for the SP should not count for double jumps IMO. That first double toe didn't really count anyway since you can't do just a double toe alone so Machida should have been allowed to do add a double toe after the lutz.
    I was so surprised to see when his score first came up and I was like you know. Even I checked its protocol, I still had no idea why his 3Lz+2T did not count at all. For many years, until last night, I believed this rule applys only to triple jumps. Even after seeing what has happend, I still believe it should apply only triples. Especially in SP. ITA with you. Just senseless, isn't it? Ouch for Tatsuki in score-wise...really.

    Oh, and the way they scored last night, OGM is supposed to be between Patrick and Yuzuru it seem. by ISU and its judges preference.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by supsu View Post
    So i guess a skater popping his 4t to 3t couldn't do his perhaps planned 3lz+3t? Cause i don't remember seeing point deductions on such or perhaps there haven't been any..

    Also, how does the zayak rule work in the long? Is there more rules than max 2 same triples (one in a combo) and max 3 combos..? I can't remember the scores and skaters of those I didn't get the points (or loss of points)..
    The other thing to note if you fail to do a combo on either of the two attempts on the triple, one of them will still count as a combo. So you have to be careful not to add an extra combo by accident.

    For example
    4T
    3A
    3A+ SEQ (due to not doing a combo)
    3Z+3T
    3F-1L+3S
    3L
    3Z
    2A

    Although two combos were done, the second 3A without a combo still counts as a combo, so you can't try to make up points by adding it to another jump otherwise you end up with too many combos.

  9. #159
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    It wasn't always like this, was it? I distinctly remember seeing a protocol where one of the jumps in a combo was invalidated but the other was credited.

    Edit: Protocols for Irina Slutskaya's 2005 FS - would the entire combo be invalidated under the current rules?

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    I was so surprised to see when his score first came up and I was like you know. Even I checked its protocol, I still had no idea why his 3Lz+2T did not count at all. For many years, until last night, I believed this rule applys only to triple jumps. Even after seeing what has happend, I still believe it should apply only triples. Especially in SP. ITA with you. Just senseless, isn't it? Ouch for Tatsuki in score-wise...really.

    Oh, and the way they scored last night, OGM is supposed to be between Patrick and Yuzuru it seem. by ISU and its judges preference.
    Yeah, poor Tatsuki. I still think he will end up above Kovtun and Yan because of past scores. With a 170+, he'll probably move up to 4th.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    That's one of the things that bothers me about skating. An outcome in a sport should never be influenced by location but that's skating for ya.
    Is it really? Or is that just a persistent myth.? Why would judges from other countries do such a thing? There are advantages to skating on home turf, but I really don't think they have much to do with the judging. Scientific studies about this have been done in other sports (team sports), I wish someone would do one in skating.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwanIsALegand View Post
    I think they sent Hanyu a message: keep it up and you'll be the next Chan?
    They were impressed that is for sure.
    I suspect a change of the guard is taking place now.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    Edit: Protocols for Irina Slutskaya's 2005 FS - would the entire combo be invalidated under the current rules?

    Yes, it would.

  14. #164
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    In the case of a Zayak violation, the tech panel needs to manually downgrade the lowest-scoring jump(s) in violation so that there is no longer a violation. That's the only way for the scores to accurately reflect what the skater did. None of this crap about entire jumping passes being worth 0 points. There's no reason why one of Nobunari Oda's extra Triple Toeloops at 2011 Worlds couldn't have just been scored as a double (thereby removing the zayak violation) and in this case with Machida, his doubled quad attempt should have just been scored as a single, giving him full credit for the 3Lutz+2Toe.

  15. #165
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    Ooops

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    I didnt say a clean Chan in the short cant beat a clean Hanyu. Of course he can, he did easily a few weeks ago. I just think the reverse is also true, especialy in Japan. That was my only point. I dont think at all it is certain Chan was going to be given a 100+ when his spectacular SP at Worlds in CANADA (which is one of the 3 top countries in home cooked scores, along with Japan, and of course both behind the clear leader Russia) didnt even get that. Hanyu set a new SP WR so of course he has a chance vs anyone in the short. I think in the short both skating cleanly anything can happen, but in the long Chan would win for sure due to PCS (although if both skate a clean LP here I am pretty sure Hanyu will now win due to his short program gap).
    And the so called expert is wrong...yet again...

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