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Thread: Men LP - 2013-14 Grand Prix Final

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Ack, double post...please delete.
    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Kovtuns BV at CoC was 74.01. If you add 10 points for a 4T instead of the 2T, you're at 84+. That's still about 4 points behind Hanyus GPF BV of 88+, and if his only mistake is a fall on the 4S, Kovtun very likely won't even win the TES. The fall GOE would cancel out the BV advantage, but then the fight would be about +GOE on the other elements, and I guess Hanyu would get a little better GOE, even in Russia. If Hanyu makes more mistakes/worse one like poping the 4S, than it's another story...
    But what if he tacked on another quad combo? He's delivered a very fine 4S-3T at CoC SP. He's capable of that and getting +GOEs. Hanyu's 4S is shaky...and he would have no home advantage. Not to scare Hanyu but he has to improve in his weaker areas, especially those preferred by host.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Ack, double post...please delete.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yeah, 164 is actually pretty good, considering he tripled a quad and neglected to do a 3rd combo (e.g. 2A-3T at the end). His spins could indeed use higher levels. To me his SP is his shining point - reminds me of Lambiel at some points and excellent interpretation and steps. His SS are not nearly as good as you make them out to be, but he still has years of experience to accumulate.
    True, I'm cherry picking his better moments for the SS, but they're there, though punctuated by typical old Kovtun faux pas..eg.how can you get on the wrong edge of a lightning step sequence after delivering a quad combo, a quad, and triple axel? But they're there, ...and whatever they did to turn a tearful wreck in SP into a composed adult the next day, it's working. SS is there and getting better.

  3. #198
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates
    But what if he tacked on another quad combo? He's delivered a very fine 4S-3T at CoC SP. He's capable of that and getting +GOEs. Hanyu's 4S is shaky...and he would have no home advantage. Not to scare Hanyu but he has to improve in his weaker areas, especially those preferred by host.
    Well, adding a 4th combo would have him zayaking, so he would need to cancel one of the later combos. Another quad-combo wouldn't pay off, not with the way this system works (although it should). Unless you meant to upgrade the 4S-2T to a 4S-3T (looking at his CoC LP), that would give him about 3 points more. He'd still not even quite tie Hanyu. (Part of that probably comes from Kovtun 'just' going for 5 additional triples. Of course 3 quads + 5 triples is a tough layout, but Hanyu goes for 2 quads + 8 triples).

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Ha, I'm NOT a Kovtun fan, but I think if he nails all his quad-sal-triples & other combos while Hanyu falls on his quad sals, the Sochi advantage will carry him home, so to speak. It's not his PCS but TES, I know, it sounds sacrilegious after Hanyu's scores here, but he is no shirk in chalking those up either. Consider the speed of his trajectory, this year alone,- within a few months, he's already a different skater. The old Kovtun surfaced for a bit in the kiss and cry after SP, but he pulled together to deliver a very decent LP. Anyways, it makes Sochi interesting, we'll see.
    The best either Plushenko or Kovtun can do in Sochi is a bronze medal, and is even if one of Hanyu or Chan bomb. Neither will get the PCS or even the GOE to come close, and either would struggle to have all level 4 spins and footwork at this point too.

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    It boils down to their mental state at the end, I didn't do the Math too carefully but wasn't Kovtun's base value for both SP & LP during CoC on par with (or close to) Hanyu's? (edit: ok, it's not, but with 4S-3T& 4T, closer) He popped two of his jumps at CoC at least and fell during steps, but his PCS was low balled for both. His TES was 46+ for SP w a fall, received 36+ for PCS. I reckon at Sochi he might get TES close to 50 and also PCS to match.

    I might be wrong but I have a hunch that it's not Kovtun who is waiting in the wings for Plushenko, but Plushenko waiting to see if Kovtun is ready for Sochi. If Kovtun isn't, Plushenko would go but he'll be facing a difficult TES battle as the most senior and injured skater there. I love Menshov, but Sochi was why he got a raw deal from the Russian Fed.

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    I am an uberfan of Takahashi and I am fan of Hanyu but I am really drawn to Kovtun this season. He is special.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Ha, I'm NOT a Kovtun fan, but I think if he nails all his quad-sal-triples & other combos while Hanyu falls on his quad sals, the Sochi advantage will carry him home, so to speak. It's not his PCS but TES, I know, it sounds sacrilegious after Hanyu's scores here, but he is no shirk in chalking those up either. Consider the speed of his trajectory, this year alone,- within a few months, he's already a different skater. The old Kovtun surfaced for a bit in the kiss and cry after SP, but he pulled together to deliver a very decent LP. Anyways, it makes Sochi interesting, we'll see.

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    Watching Chan's LP again on CBC I would have to say the PCS he is getting for this LP are way over the top, even when he skates well. The edge work is excellent as always, but compared to Lambiel's program to the same music the interpretation, performance, and choreography is all significantly inferior, although the skating skills are better:

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...r+seasons&sm=3

    Today his GOE were also grossly exagerrated. He did all the jumps cleanly but they werent as good as he can do, and they were tight and low. The first triple axel was super ugly and stiff and still got very high GOE. It is silly think even had Hanyu landed his 4salchow the GOE between the two would have been close, which was definitely not accurate to reality today.

  8. #203
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    Lambiel is all I can think of when he skates to that music and I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Watching Chan's LP again on CBC I would have to say the PCS he is getting for this LP are way over the top, even when he skates well. The edge work is excellent as always, but compared to Lambiel's program to the same music the interpretation, performance, and choreography is all significantly inferior, although the skating skills are better:

    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...r+seasons&sm=3

    Today his GOE were also grossly exagerrated. He did all the jumps cleanly but they werent as good as he can do, and they were tight and low. The first triple axel was super ugly and stiff and still got very high GOE. It is silly think even had Hanyu landed his 4salchow the GOE between the two would have been close, which was definitely not accurate to reality today.

  9. #204
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    MEN'S FREE SKATE - VIDEOS (By Starting Order) - Updated

    1. Tatsuki MACHIDA (JPN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy

    2. Maxim KOVTUN (RUS) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    3. Han YAN (CHN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    4. Nobunari ODA (JPN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    5. Patrick CHAN (CAN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy

    6. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy

    RESULT

    Overall Result, Segment Result, Protocols

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetskates1 View Post
    I am an uberfan of Takahashi and I am fan of Hanyu but I am really drawn to Kovtun this season. He is special.
    Yes, there is a glimpse of Lambiel there too, especially in the steps sequence, as CanadianSkaterGuy mentioned. Both of them are stiff, power skaters with packed 2nd half. Kovtun or his team is very smart to choose a staccato SP program with great use of toepicks to emphasize his musicality, but it is also apparent that some ballet training has helped Kovtun in maintaining a defined but softer carriage than Lambiel but stronger movements, stamina and better extension than Hanyu. Add in the big elements (4S-3T) and you have a huge package there. Hanyu has lots of triples, but we know what the Russians think about quads vs triples....

    Hanyu has stronger will and nerves among the 3, Chan and Kovtun seem prone to breakdowns, and it may boil down to that at the end, as it takes nerves of steel to deliver quads.

    I think competitors need to adjust themselves to the demands of Sochi by skating more "Russian" (I don't mean music or style , but what they prize) to win.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I think competitors need to adjust themselves to the demands of Sochi by skating more "Russian" (I don't mean music or style , but what they prize) to win.
    I doubt that Chan would have to skate more "Russian" to win the Olympics. His TES with 2 quads is already huge. Unless, you are talking about the other potential medal winners of which only Javi is attempting 3 quads and that hasn't been working out that great for him this season. Even Kovtun's been only rotating 2 quads per FS during the GP.

  12. #207
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    MEN'S FREE SKATE - VIDEOS (By Starting Order) - Updated

    1. Tatsuki MACHIDA (JPN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy

    2. Maxim KOVTUN (RUS) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    3. Han YAN (CHN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    4. Nobunari ODA (JPN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    5. Patrick CHAN (CAN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy

    6. Yuzuru HANYU (JPN) Free Skate, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy, Interview

    Medal Ceremony

    RESULT

    Overall Result, Segment Result, Protocols

  13. #208
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    Canadian Skater Guy:

    I suppose you are a Patrick Chan fan, so am I, from across the ocean, overseas Canadian that is eh?
    One thing the GPF showed is that Canada is top of the world, in men's figure skating discipline. Reason(s)?
    Patrick Chan's performance is reason No.1
    Yuzuru's coach, Brian Orser, is reason No.2.

    It is very smart of Japan to send their best talent, young and full of future possibibilties, to the best coach around, who formerly coached Kim, too, until fired by her, for private reaons, but not before Brian helped her to her first Olympic gold, in Vancouver.

    Whatever the outcome between the young Japanese talent, Yuzuru and 'veteran' Patrick Chan, in the coming Sochii games, the results will be a full compliment on the excellence of Canadian figure skating tradition, for both competitors are 'Canadian' , one born with it, trained with its system, and the other, although born overseas, with different culture, is nurtured and trained by a top Canadian coach.

    Mind you, Japan is a great skating nation, in many ways greater than Canada. Japan is not snow bound 8 months of the year, its people are not as athletic as Canadians do. But they do have a great skating population, greater than Canada's figure skating crowd, thinned by the NHL prospective parents' efforts.
    My kid's coach took her best pupils to a Japanese meet at Kyoto, last year, and the ISU event pulled in more than 600 competitors!
    Perhaps, the ISI commercial rink setup is hurting N American figure skating, and not promoting serious competitions like the all ISU Japan Skating Union is doing.

    One final word, the Japanese people, genetically, was proven by some experts, to be extremely similar to the people across the Eastern Sea, the Chinese people at Fujian Province, they are both short in stature, and proportioned similarly. So is Patrick Chan, a genetic native of Southern China, ancestral county/village in TaiShan, for his dad, and the adjacent county of XinHui, for his mom, just west of the Pearl River estaury, in GuangDong Province, . Well, they are all short (in western standards) and extremely agile and athletic.

    It is no accident then, that the two, similar in so many ways fight for the Olympic Gold in coming February.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Yes, there is a glimpse of Lambiel there too, especially in the steps sequence, as CanadianSkaterGuy mentioned. Both of them are stiff, power skaters with packed 2nd half. Kovtun or his team is very smart to choose a staccato SP program with great use of toepicks to emphasize his musicality, but it is also apparent that some ballet training has helped Kovtun in maintaining a defined but softer carriage than Lambiel but stronger movements, stamina and better extension than Hanyu. Add in the big elements (4S-3T) and you have a huge package there.
    This is a joke, right? I can't see how anyone would compare Kovtun to Lambiel, or refer to the latter as a stiff power skater - unless it was meant as a parody.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by SquishyDumpling View Post
    I doubt that Chan would have to skate more "Russian" to win the Olympics. His TES with 2 quads is already huge. Unless, you are talking about the other potential medal winners of which only Javi is attempting 3 quads and that hasn't been working out that great for him this season. Even Kovtun's been only rotating 2 quads per FS during the GP.
    I did say Chan would have the better chance of OGM of the two (Chan/Hanyu) if he skates reasonably well and delivers his quads. He has already improved his lines, posture, carriage through training. For any good Russian skater with ballet/dance training, every limb/body movement is precisely shaped, visibly controlled and buttressed by muscles and aesthetically counted. That's a form of rigor and maturity. Unfortunately, Javi looks to be in poor shape. For Sochi, whoever's delivering great quads should be noticed. Kovtun will roll out his CoC program with eye-popping jumps or better, it's his current training, I'm sure. 4T was easy for him but he popped it at CoC, and fell on steps, so he does have brittle nerves. The TES base value, though, will be intimidating to many skaters. If he can't get it right by Feb, Plushenko will likely take the Sochi spot.

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