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Thread: Ice Dance FD - 2013-14 Grand Prix Final

  1. #151
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Um, who is it?
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/SEG008OF.HTM
    Mr. Shawn Rettsatt of the USA

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Why are people assuming that it's him? Just because he's American? We don't know who gave what score (to all our chagrin), so I don't think it's fair to accuse him.

    Shawn Rettsatt has been judging for years. If he was scoring people to undermine competitors, certainly he would have had a talking to by now.

    There's also a judge or two that is outside the corridor and they may have a valid argument with how they ended up there. In the end that person's score doesn't matter because they are thrown out in the final calculations.

    ETA: If there's some history of him scoring V/M low in past events, then perhaps there's validity in the assumption, however please point that out rather than throwing generalities.

    ETA2: Okay, apparently there was a judge at the 2011 4CC that gave V/M 5s in PCS and it happened to be that Shawn Rettsatt was on the judging panel. However correlation=/=causation. Unless it's been publicly declared somehow, there is no way to prove he was the judge in question in either situation. It's speculation at best. http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._SD_Scores.pdf

    Oh by the way Jodi Abbott, the judge from Canada was also on the panel for both events. Perhaps she did it to ensure her favorite Canadian team (W/P) had scores closer to V/M.

    But in the end, again, it doesn't matter because the scores were thrown out.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Why are people assuming that it's him? Just because he's American? We don't know who gave what score (to all our chagrin), so I don't think it's fair to accuse him.

    Shawn Rettsatt has been judging for years. If he was scoring people to undermine competitors, certainly he would have had a talking to by now.



    ETA: If there's some history of him scoring V/M low in past events, then perhaps there's validity in the assumption, however please point that out rather than throwing generalities.

    ETA2: Okay, apparently there was a judge at the 2011 4CC that gave V/M 5s in PCS and it happened to be that Shawn Rettsatt was on the judging panel. However correlation=/=causation. Unless it's been publicly declared somehow, there is no way to prove he was the judge in question in either situation. It's speculation at best. http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._SD_Scores.pdf
    Since you asked I'll take you up on your offer. I researched the events that SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) has judged V/M in from all the events from last year and this year. And in these events that Shawn Rettstatt was judging V/M, there is always one judge's set of marks for V/M that are significantly lower than the rest . Most interesting is at Worlds 2013 SD (where he sat on the panel and V/M got lowballed by one judge) vs the FD (in which he did not sit on the panel and V/M's marks rose again). I'll get to this near the end of the post.

    CoR 2012: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2012/
    V/M judge #5 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SD_Scores.pdf
    V/M judge #2 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

    GPF 2012: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/
    V/M judge #1 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SD_Scores.pdf
    V/M judge # 5 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

    GPF 2013: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/
    V/M judge #7 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._SD_Scores.pdf
    V/M judge #1 FD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

    Worlds 2013, SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2013
    V/M judge #1 SD: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._SD_Scores.pdf

    In the FD, unlike the SD, SHAWN RETTSTATT (USA) was not drawn to judge on the FD panel. And surprise, surprise. In that segment, V/M didn't get lowballed by a single judge. In fact every single one of them gave them at least a 10.00 somewhere in PCS and all marks across the FD panel were consistently in the mid to high 9s - 10s: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc..._FD_Scores.pdf

    I think it's hilarious whichever judge gave V/M 5s in all PCS marks at 2011 4CC, though. Shawn Rettstatt or not, seeing those numbers on paper is pretty funny You'd think that she or he would know better and might actually be asked to provide some explanation in the roundtable discussions.

    You mentioned that "But in the end, again, it doesn't matter because the scores were thrown out". But when marks are so close between V/M and D/W, it does make a difference. At this particular GPF in Japan this one judge's marks for V/M were glaringly obvious in both SD and FD (8s?) that I hope is looked into.

    I think someone posted here that Shawn Rettstatt will be the US Olympic ice dance judge in Sochi. Oh Goody. When that time comes I'll keep my eyes peeled for a set of marks given to V/M that rivals that of Chock/Bates

  4. #154
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    FREE DANCE - VIDEOS (By Starting Order) - Updated

    1. Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE (ITA) Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    2. Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabian BOURZAT (FRA) Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    3. Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE (CAN) Free Dance, 2nd copy, 3rd Copy

    4. Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV (RUS) Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy

    5. Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR (CAN) Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy

    6. Meryl DAVIS / Charlie WHITE (USA) Free Dance, 2nd Copy, 3rd Copy, 4th Copy

    Complete Free Dance, Medal Ceremony

    RESULT

    Overall Result, Segment Result, Protocols

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    FREE DANCE - VIDEOS (By Starting Order)

    1. Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE (ITA) Free Dance, 2nd Copy

    2. Nathalie PECHALAT / Fabian BOURZAT (FRA) Free Dance, 2nd Copy

    3. Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE (CAN) Free Dance, 2nd copy

    4. Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV (RUS) Free Dance, 2nd Copy

    5. Tessa VIRTUE / Scott MOIR (CAN) Free Dance, 2nd Copy

    6. Meryl DAVIS / Charlie WHITE (USA) Free Dance, 2nd Copy

    Complete Free Dance, Medal Ceremony

    RESULT

    Overall Result, Segment Result, Protocols
    Mao88, Master skating archivist supreme , thank you so much for this

  6. #156
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    If Chock & Bates get 8.75 in any PCS component, I'll be thrilled.

    It's hard to believe any judge got away without a reprimand giving V&M 5's in any PCS component...that is just so not right.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosacotton View Post
    C/L - charming performance, but I feel the program needs a just a little more of something to make it great.
    W/P - I continue to like this program, but they've preformed it better.
    B/S - their free dance feels like two steps back from last season. I felt sorry for them when they expressed their disappointment as soon as the skate was over.
    P/B - best performance of the free yet, and I now am a fan of it. Their medal here rises a fool's hope in me that they may contend at the Olympics despite my gut feeling that the Olympic bronze is reserved for either of the Russian teams.
    V/M - this program is now starting to gel. Lovely performance. They are the Fred Astaire of ice dance.
    D/W - another strong outing. Yet still room for improvement! I see them as ice dance's Gene Kelly. In my mind they and V/M are the co-favorites for the OGM.
    Oh Rosacotton! I thought I was the only one thinking the Astaire/Kelly comparison! So true!

  8. #158
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    Cappellini & Lanotte – nice program, nice to watch, but Anna with her straight legs, not using her knees at all, no deep edges in skating, only 28 second in close dance position, 57 seconds without touching each other, program itself on the level of I&K FD, but with worse skating skills. I am not surprised with the last position.

    Weaver & Poje – in my opinion the best “dancing” choreography this year. Kaitlyn attacked sharpness and passion again (it was better than at COR). Andrew was not sharp this time and he was shaky during turns in both step sequences, Kaitlyn struggled in turns in diagonal step sequence also. Kaitlyn and Andrew are not so good technicians (not yet), that is why they are rather slow (with crossovers or simple parts between elements their skating would be fast of course, but I like that Krylova & Camerlengo are pushing them to that choreography to make a better dancers from these two, the team who can challenge top teams and even fight for Olympic/World bronze medal with content which deserves such medal). It is also obvious that Andrew’s free leg is not tightened especially in step sequences, he should work on it. But overall this dance is great, I like watching it. I am looking forward to see this dance at next competition. I guess it will be one of the highlights at the Olympics and Worlds.

    Bobrova & Soloviev – while at the beginning of the the season it was more running during first half of the program, right now they start to fly across the ice. Bird story is more and more readable, white sleeves (in a colour of ice) are hinding great work of arms by Ekaterina watching it from big distance or in worse quality video. Stupid mistake in simple skating from Ekaterina which caused Dmitri’s fall is a good example that skaters have to concentrate for the whole program, not only during the most difficult parts. The mistake came after that soo fast part of the program in place when nobody expected a problem…..and it cost them bronze medal. The rest of the elements were clean but general impression was deleted a little bit.

    Pechalat & Bourzat – improvement in speed in last part of the dance. I love all those details they are doing with head, arms even with toes. They had great unison also (they missed it in short dance). I like their Chaplin and Circus more that this dance, but their free dance was a highlight this time. I keep saying that Shpilband doesn’t fit them as coach, they lost technique and speed with him a little bit. If they really finish skating after this season I will miss them a lot. They are great dancers especially Natalie.
    This is one of the couple who never achieved the biggest possible placements, but people will always remember them and even 10 years later skating fans will be looking for their dances at Youtube channel, I am sure of it.

    Virtue & Moir – I don’t think that idea of doing Mahler number 2 was the best idea. But once it was done and they are skating to it…it is beautiful, not the program itself but their skating and dancing. I watched every free program more than once and after every program I sat a while and let the feelings from the program fly across my head….and Tessa and Scott’s program made the best impression, it was the strongest experience for me. They still have beautiful and deep edges, difficult program, they skate so close to each other (yes, they could have more close position which would make their dance even more difficult).

    Davis & White – while Kaitlyn has the best “dancing” choreography, Marina Zueva created for their kids the choreography with the biggest imagination, sometimes it reminds me a fairy tale. I don’t find program itself too difficult looking at dancing qualities because of many and many running steps from both of them, because of little jumps from Meryl (it doesn’t press them to do edges work, which shows the quality of every dancer the most… everybody knows to do running steps, but only the best skaters have deep edges and can use it with grace), time they spend in close dancing holds under 30 seconds. Meryl improved her arm movements since last year, it looks lovely.

    What I also like about top 5 teams here (which I also find top 5 world teams at the moment) is the fact that there is still something happening, there are no empty places in their programs, you can’t even close your eyes for one second without missing some element or some interesting moment. Every music needs to be expressed on 100 percent. The better music music you pick especially classical music, the more difficulty it takes to express it well. First 5 teams did it and I liked it.

  9. #159
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    I have heard that the judge who gave V/M PCS in the 5s was not a North American judge and thought that the PCS marks were out of 6.0, like the old system.

    Sounds crazy but V/M skated very early on the skate order, so the judge likely realized their huge mistake afterwards.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple Pi View Post
    I have heard that the judge who gave V/M PCS in the 5s was not a North American judge and thought that the PCS marks were out of 6.0, like the old system.

    Sounds crazy but V/M skated very early on the skate order, so the judge likely realized their huge mistake afterwards.

    None of the other teams from 2nd to 6th place got anything lower than 6 on PCS.

    Whether the judge was a North American or not I don't know. But he or she clearly wasn't thinking 6.0 system when they punched in marks of 7, 8s, or 9s for D/W and W/P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post

    None of the other teams from 2nd to 6th place got anything lower than 6 on PCS.
    Whether the judge was a North American or not is unknown.
    V/M skated 5th in the skate order, before the 2nd - 6th place teams were on the ice. All the teams that skated before V/M got PCS less than 6.

    I said non North-American to keep the identity of the judge who made a mistake secret. Because this person was clearly not up with the times.

  12. #162
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    Aside from the erroneous judge, there was also Judge 8 who gave them lower PCS (in the 7s for SS). Wonder who that could be.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._SD_Scores.pdf

    Aside from the erroneous marks at that event:
    I so wish the ISU would get rid of this anonymous judging. Bias/erroneous judging from one single judge happens frequently in singles and pairs skating too. Unfortunately they get to hide behind the curtain until they mess up enough times to be suspended. Might also help some like me from having to speculate

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    Aside from the erroneous judge, there was also Judge 8 who gave them lower PCS (in the 7s for SS). Wonder who that could be.
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc..._SD_Scores.pdf

    I so wish the ISU would get rid of this anonymous judging. Bias/erroneous judging from one single judge happens frequently in singles and pairs skating. Unfortunately they get to hide behind the curtain until they mess up enough times to be suspended. Might also help some like me from having to speculate
    There is also a judge who gave D/W PCS primarily in the 7s. They are likely also the person who gave W/P a 6.5 for SS. My hypothesis is that they scored everyone a little lower, but consistently, which is fine. Context is important.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt K View Post
    Unfortunately they get to hide behind the curtain until they mess up enough times to be suspended.
    The way the review process works, this is practically impossible (although there are about a dozen or so reprimands or demotions per year, about half of them in ice dance). There is a referees review after each event where they chat about things, but in order for an official "anomaly" to be charged against a judge for PCS that judge would have to be off from the average by a total of 7.5 points (1.5 points for each component).

    In this contest the low judge for Virtue and Moir was off by about 3.23 for the short program and 2.89 for the long -- both well within the "corridor." (These are estimates only, because the "average" that the ISU uses includes not only the marks of all nine judges but also the scores of the referee (counted twice) and the scores of any member of the Judges Oversight Committee who happen to be present at the event.)

    On the other hand, the ISU knows who the judges are, even if we don't. If it is really true that a particular judge is picking on Virtue and Moir over and over, it seems like David Dore could raise some sand about it.
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-08-2013 at 07:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apple Pi View Post
    V/M skated 5th in the skate order, before the 2nd - 6th place teams were on the ice. All the teams that skated before V/M got PCS less than 6.

    I said non North-American to keep the identity of the judge who made a mistake secret. Because this person was clearly not up with the times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apple Pi View Post
    I have heard that the judge who gave V/M PCS in the 5s was not a North American judge and thought that the PCS marks were out of 6.0, like the old system.

    Sounds crazy but V/M skated very early on the skate order, so the judge likely realized their huge mistake afterwards.
    I don't think that's true.
    I did some more digging into all the ice dance judges at the 2011 Four Continents. They ALL have previously, before the 2011 4C event, judged at some ISU ice dance GP event under the IJS, junior or senior, but mostly senior. And in all cases I checked, each of these judges have given marks greater than 6.0 in those cases as per the protocols for those events.

    So the 5s given by that one judge was definitely not due to his/her thinking that it was a 6.0 system. Either that judge was biased or a newbie or some other reason (like a mistake), but definitely they have given marks greater than 6.0s in the past.

    Besides, it takes several years of training to be judge at the ISU level, and then there's the exam which they all have to pass under the IJS system. There's no way any judge could/would be tricked into thinking they are judging under some old system. They are constantly evaluated at certain points in the years they are training to be a judge, if she or he thought he/she was judging under the 6.0 system there would be no way they would be able to continue on.

    There may have been rumours from GS archives or FSU during that time about the judge thinking it was a 6.0 system, but it's not true at all.

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