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Thread: How tired are you of footwork sequences that take 30+ seconds to complete?

  1. #46
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    You are telling me that Rosenthal in 2006 (when the new system was just implemented, relatively new) executed the greatest footwork under COP? This isn't a racing competition where the fastest completion is superior to everything else; completing it in 17 seconds is not good news compared to people who were doing a lot more. Better than Yuna's footwork in Danse Macabre? Dai's Pagliacci footwork? Jeff Buttle's Armenian footwork? Not to mention dozens of skaters' other brilliant performances with incredible choreography in the past 8 years.
    People who are "doing a lot more" are spending far more time on the footwork. Of course you're going to "do more" when you spend TWICE as much time (or longer!) on footwork! Being able to actually cover the ice surface in a limited amount of time and with a clear pattern is something that should be valued in footwork. It's something that has ALWAYS been valued in footwork throughout the history of figure skating. We just suddenly started losing it a couple years after CoP was introduced, as the rules became more and more laborious and constrictive.

    It's not just Rosenthal's footwork that should be held up as an example. Look at the footwork from all of the top competitors in the 2005 and 2006 seasons, when CoP was young. People were actually covering the ice in a good amount of time and for a choreographic purpose, while still showing lots of difficult steps/turns:

    Lambiel 2006 SP
    Lambiel 2006 LP
    Weir 2006 SP
    Plushenko 2006 SP
    Buttle 2005 SP
    Kostner 2005 SP
    Cohen 2006 SP
    Cohen 2006 LP
    Takahashi 2006 LP
    Slutskaya 2005 SP
    Slutskaya 2006 SP

    The footwork during the 2006-2007 season was a lot more pleasing as well. Look at the top 5 Ladies SP's from 2007 Worlds and notice how they ALL get across the ice with their step sequences more quickly and clearly than we have seen in the past 5 years.

    Yu-Na 2007 SP
    Asada 2007 SP
    Meissner 2007 SP
    Kostner 2007 SP
    Ando 2007 SP

  2. #47
    Custom Title BlackPack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    People who are "doing a lot more" are spending far more time on the footwork. Of course you're going to "do more" when you spend TWICE as much time (or longer!) on footwork! Being able to actually cover the ice surface in a limited amount of time and with a clear pattern is something that should be valued in footwork. It's something that has ALWAYS been valued in footwork throughout the history of figure skating. We just suddenly started losing it a couple years after CoP was introduced, as the rules became more and more laborious and constrictive.

    It's not just Rosenthal's footwork that should be held up as an example. Look at the footwork from all of the top competitors in the 2005 and 2006 seasons, when CoP was young. People were actually covering the ice in a good amount of time and for a choreographic purpose, while still showing lots of difficult steps/turns:

    Lambiel 2006 SP
    Lambiel 2006 LP
    Weir 2006 SP
    Plushenko 2006 SP
    Buttle 2005 SP
    Kostner 2005 SP
    Cohen 2006 SP
    Cohen 2006 LP
    Takahashi 2006 LP
    Slutskaya 2005 SP
    Slutskaya 2006 SP

    The footwork during the 2006-2007 season was a lot more pleasing as well. Look at the top 5 Ladies SP's from 2007 Worlds and notice how they ALL get across the ice with their step sequences more quickly and clearly than we have seen in the past 5 years.

    Yu-Na 2007 SP
    Asada 2007 SP
    Meissner 2007 SP
    Kostner 2007 SP
    Ando 2007 SP
    Well, ok, I agree that the system has to limit skaters to complete the step sequence under 20 seconds. I can't stand more pointless strutting with skaters who clearly have no edge skills. I can't stand more twists and turns with no choreographic relevance to the music.

    But as of now, people who do more will get rewarded under the current rules. By no means, do I agree with the rules or even most of them.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Exactly. Since the rules no longer require the skater to create a clear shape on the ice, and since they have unlimited time to perform the sequence, it's not really a great test of blade control. Of course it's still difficult to get a Level 4, but it would be even more difficult to get Level 4 with my proposed rules and the programs would look FAR better and allow for better musicality.
    You talk a lot but you dont seem to understand. Just like you said you studied the rules but that dont mean you understand it.

    The current system is fine. They just have to score it correctly. Endless steps with no relation to the music and/or lacking musicality should reflect in P/E, IN, CH, and SS.

    Why not try to understand the real issue instead of reinventing the wheel.

    There is a fundamental misunderstanding of the system from these suggestions. Just do it right and it should be good.

  4. #49
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    There's certainly no misunderstanding of the system on my part. Choreography and the ability to interpret music are suffering because of the rules. "Just do it right and it should be good", are you kidding? I mean, yeah, of course we can choreograph to these rules and sometimes it will come out looking very good (although rarely ever ideal), but the kinds of programs you can create becomes limited.

    Please stop with the empty talk -- "reinventing the wheel"? I've specifically talked about actual footwork being done during the earlier years of CoP. I'm saying the rules need to be much more like that and I've provided many arguments as to why. Where is your argument to the contrary? So far you've made none.

    --

    A worthwhile post I didn't see earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    Most of top skaters' step sequence these days look endless and very very very long.

    I have to say that I like some of them. Others I do not like.

    I am gonna give an example of a skater that I like: Carolina Kostner. She is known for her great footworks.

    -Her Bolero Step Sequence, I liked. It is super long(I have already counted the lasting time) and it lasts more than 45 seconds, almost 50 seconds. But, it kinda fit the music and was nice to watch.

    -On the other hand, I am not a fan of Humoresque Step Sequence. Yes, it is fast, it s long(44 seconds, I've just counted) and difficult, but you really do not recognize when the footwork starts and finishes. It seems that Lori and Carolina had that part of the music empty and decided to throw the footwork there.

    But, I have to say that I like Carolina's older footworks more. My favorites are:

    -2007/2008(Riders on the Storm) SP, lasted 30 seconds. This is, also, my favorite program from Carolina:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...d5stpQS0#t=150
    With her Riders on the Storm footwork, I count it as 28 seconds. I don't think the illusion turn and extra steps at the end were at all necessary (I'd definitely prefer other movements with those fast piano notes). If we take those movements out the sequence is 24 seconds, just a couple over the 22 second limitation (for determining Level) that I propose; wouldn't be hard to modify it down 2 seconds. That would give her 6 extra seconds in the program, which I think would be very valuable for transitioning into the final spin and closing out the program. The mood of the program changes at the end there but she doesn't have time to interpret it, plus she actually ends behind the music just trying to finish the spin.

    I count her Bolero footwork as 36 seconds (and then she does the "choreography sequence" soon afterward). I'd rather see it as two separate footwork sequences, especially when considering the crescendo of the music partway through that sequence (would be ideal to start another footwork sequence on). If I had my way with the CoP rules, skaters would have optional elements in the Long Program, aka "Freeskate". There would be a minimum amount of jumps, spins, and footwork needed in program and then after that the skaters would be able to pick and choose what they want to do extra of.

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    I think a time limit on footwork sequences is a bit unnecessary. Sometimes skaters will pause for nuanced moments (like Wagner in her Black Swan). A footwork sequence doesn't always have to be blistering fast... sometimes it can be quite subtle and expressing. The skater shouldn't be motoring to get as many turns in as possible... clearly slower music will make it harder to incorporate all the necessary steps and turns (while still maintaining musicality).

    Because of the 2 sets of multi-turns requirement, many skaters have "safety nets" in their footwork to achieve a level. I'm thinking that a skater should be limited to having three "attempts" of these to get the proper edges to fulfill that particularly level feature... otherwise they'll keep adding these multi-turn sets which cause the sequence to look laborious, excessively technical, and drawn out.

  6. #51
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think a time limit on footwork sequences is a bit unnecessary. Sometimes skaters will pause for nuanced moments (like Wagner in her Black Swan). A footwork sequence doesn't always have to be blistering fast...sometimes it can be quite subtle and expressing.
    Of course. But as I already pointed out, a "blisteringly fast" footwork sequence should probably take something like 17 seconds. So that's still 5 seconds to spare if the skater wants to extend it. Just look at Johnny Weir's footwork sequences in the 2006 SP I linked. That is one of the best performances ever to very soft music and his circular footwork sequence got a Level 4 at 2006 Nationals and didn't take more than 22 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Because of the 2 sets of multi-turns requirement, many skaters have "safety nets" in their footwork to achieve a level. I'm thinking that a skater should be limited to having three "attempts" of these to get the proper edges to fulfill that particularly level feature... otherwise they'll keep adding these multi-turn sets which cause the sequence to look laborious, excessively technical, and drawn out.
    The multi-turn rules need to be totally changed to begin with. Being required to do 5 different turns and 3 different steps in BOTH directions, PLUS "2/3 of the sequence displaying full body rotation, 1/3 for each rotational direction", is completely ridiculous. The rules are asking the chefs to just throw everything in the pot and expect it to come out tasting good.

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    Blades of Passion, I think we are the only people here in GS that like Rosenthal.

    I love her! The 2006 SP is awesome. She is very musical.

    That step sequence is jaw dropping and, IMHO, the best I have ever seen. The speed, ice coverage is just wow.

    Blades of Passion, let me show you another step sequence that I like a lot. I think people here will not like it, but I like. What do you think?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...iiUaF6-o#t=235

    Only 2 girls in Torino got level 3 for the footwork in the LP. Carolina and Shizuka.

    What I like about this step sequence is that it looks simple, not laboured or jerky. It also has nice upper body movement and I like the way she finishes the sequence. The footwork also matches the song's time and progression.

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    Blades of Passion, what do you think of this step sequence?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...KB6m2zHY#t=146

    I really like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...iiUaF6-o#t=235

    Only 2 girls in Torino got level 3 for the footwork in the LP. Carolina and Shizuka.

    What I like about this step sequence is that it looks simple, not laboured or jerky. It also has nice upper body movement and I like the way she finishes the sequence. The footwork also matches the song's time and progression.
    I think Carolina's sideways leg extension in the middle of that sequence is embarrassing. Really poorly executed. She was just so nervous throughout the whole thing too. But I do like the choreography of it, which is the more important point here. It's a very difficult sequence and works with the fragmented nature of the music.

    Quote Originally Posted by mateusp1 View Post
    Blades of Passion, what do you think of this step sequence?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...KB6m2zHY#t=146

    I really like it.
    I think the start of it is effective and the mid-section is very effective, but otherwise I feel there's too much going on here. Particularly in the second half of the sequence she gets stuck in one spot on the ice trying to cram in a bunch of steps. This music is so fast and upbeat, which calls for things like quick series of toepick turns and running steps, but instead she's trying to fit in all kinds of counters, choctaws, rockers, and loops. It's too much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    There's certainly no misunderstanding of the system on my part. Choreography and the ability to interpret music are suffering because of the rules. "Just do it right and it should be good", are you kidding? I mean, yeah, of course we can choreograph to these rules and sometimes it will come out looking very good (although rarely ever ideal), but the kinds of programs you can create becomes limited.

    Please stop with the empty talk -- "reinventing the wheel"? I've specifically talked about actual footwork being done during the earlier years of CoP. I'm saying the rules need to be much more like that and I've provided many arguments as to why. Where is your argument to the contrary? So far you've made none.
    Here are the negative GOE
    STEPS
    Fall -3
    Incorrect pattern (too small) -1 to -2
    Less than half of the pattern doing steps/turns -2 to -3
    Poor quality of steps, turns, positions -1 to -3
    Stumble -1 to -2
    Does not correspond to the music -1 to -2


    ALL OF WHICH answer your prayer. If they start deducting -2 for no correspondence to music, - 1 for poor quality, -2 for bad pattern, etc..., a girl can get level 4, but with -3 GOE, for a grand total of 3.9 - 2.1 = 1.8 points. Same as a double loop. What dumb girl would continue to spend 40 seconds of the program to gain 1.8 points. Obviously, there are plenty of dumb girls in skating, not all can be Rachael Flatt. But plenty will cut their step sequences to minimal if all they get is 1.8 points for 40 seconds. My example doesn't even include bad choreography, which should get lower for CH. Bad P/E. Bad IN. Bad SS. lower 1 point across these PCS, and the laborious level 4 step sequence will gain you negative point even.

    Your nonsense about limiting the steps sequence to 20 seconds or 10 seconds or some arbitrary seconds are so ridiculous and nonsensical.

    I repeat myself again, just apply the correct GOE to steps. If it has nothing to do with the music, but for the sole reason of level 4, - 2 GOE. If it's bad quality, another -2 GOE. Reinventing the wheels much?

    Seriously, you have problem understanding the current system, and you want to create something even more constricting? more constraint doesn't make it less bad.

  11. #56
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Here are the negative GOE

    ALL OF WHICH answer your prayer.
    No they don't. There's no bullet point for jumbled step sequence pattern. They specifically changed the rules to not even NEED a pattern (circular, straightline, serpentine), so clearly this is a value that has been lost in skating with the current CoP. Furthermore, the steps can still have some semblance of correspondence the music, and thus deserve a high technical score, but that doesn't actually mean it is good choreography or interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    My example doesn't even include bad choreography, which should get lower for CH. Bad P/E. Bad IN. Lower 1 point across these PCS, and the laborious level 4 step sequence will gain you negative point even.
    But we all know that won't happen. The rules themselves specifically allow, nay, DEMAND that skaters cram all of these steps and turns in. The standard of the sport itself needs to change or else the judging won't. Moreover, the question is also about how much technical content should be allowed. For example, spins have a maximum of 4 features allowed in them. Some skaters could do 5 features in all of their spins, if the rules said they had to. Are those skaters being punished?

    The rules could also say that 5-jump combinations are required. It's certainly something that would show a technical skill, but do we WANT to see everyone attempting such a thing? Do we WANT to measure such a thing? No, we don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Your nonsense about limiting the steps sequence to 22 seconds is so ridiculous and nonsensical.
    No step sequence in history prior to 2006 ever took more than 22 seconds to complete. Think about that.

    Either way, the point is that the current step sequence rules are awful. The level rules need to change and there needs to be a measurement of how well the skaters can actually do the footwork as a clear pattern. I feel a time limit would also definitely be beneficial, as that would create a level playing field for all of the competitors to work from and would measure something worthwhile - how well can you control your movement to earn the level you want to achieve within the specified timeframe? As has been said in other posts, the ice dancers have time limitations on how long their lifts can go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    No they don't. There's no bullet point for jumbled step sequence pattern. They specifically changed the rules to not even NEED a pattern (circular, straightline, serpentine), so clearly this is a value that has been lost in skating with the current CoP. Furthermore, the steps can still have some semblance of correspondence the music, and thus deserve a high technical score, but that doesn't actually mean it is good choreography or interpretation.
    Like I said, if you grade them correctly, your problem is solved. No idiot will go for a jumpled step sequence pattern for little points. Maybe it will take a few competitions for someone like Gracie to get it, but I tell you, most of them will cut half of their steps after seeing the protocol.

    But we all know that won't happen. The rules themselves specifically allow, nay, DEMAND that skaters cram all of these steps and turns in. The standard of the sport itself needs to change or else the judging won't. Moreover, the question is also about how much technical content should be allowed.
    I know, you know, everyone knows that PCS is a joke and has nothing to do with what they are. PCS should decrease greatly for terrible 40 sec steps, but they don't. So instead of changing it again and again, maybe time for the judges to relearn what is PCS. Again, until you master the current system, there's no need to change and have more "rules and requirements" Enough rules, enough requirements. Let skating be free skating. You can do 20 sec steps, or you can do 40 sec steps. If your 40 sec steps go with music, with choreography, with all things considered, your GOE is +3 (3.9+2.1 = 6.0) your CH, PE, IN, SS shine through your step sequence and go up accordingly. Girls who can't do it won't do it. Girls who can will.


    For example, spins have a maximum of 4 features allowed in them. Some skaters could do 5 features in all of their spins, if the rules said they had to. Are those skaters being punished?
    The rules could also say that 5-jump combinations are required. It's certainly something that would show a technical skill, but do we WANT to see everyone attempting such a thing? Do we WANT to measure such a thing? No, we don't.
    Is Miki being punished for not able to do 4Sal in the SP?
    Was Mao being punished in Vancouver for not able to replace 2A with 3A? You're going into something else now.

    5-jump combo? or 3-jump combo? I certainly wouldn't want to see eeked out 3-jump combo. And we have a solution for that, -GOE. You can probably get more points for a good 2-jump combo than a bad 3-jump combo. Again and again, we saw skaters fell on the last jump of the 3-jump combo. And they got punished for that. So if you can't do it right, don't do it. It's that simple.

    No step sequence in history prior to 2006 ever took more than 22 seconds to complete. Think about that.
    Good step sequence today are more awesome and inspiring than step sequence prior to 2006. Again, progress. Problem is most people who aren't capable are still trying to do it and face absolutely no consequences. You need to slap them with -3 GOE for dumb step sequence, then they will stop.

    Either way, the point is that the current step sequence rules are awful. The level rules need to change and there needs to be a measurement of how well the skaters can actually do the footwork as a clear pattern. I feel a time limit would also definitely be beneficial, as that would create a level playing field for all of the competitors to work from and would measure something worthwhile - how well can you control your movement to earn the level you want to achieve within the specified timeframe? As has been said in other posts, the ice dancers have time limitations on how long their lifts can go.
    I don't want more rules. More rules kill the sport. Correct and fair judging is what we need.
    Ice dancers should not have time limitations on their lifts. I would strike that one out as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    No step sequence in history prior to 2006 ever took more than 22 seconds to complete. Think about that.
    And no step sequence in history prior to 2006 had a bracket/loop/counter/rocker/choctaw/twizzle all integrated into them. 5 turns and 3 steps in both directions is a bit excessive, but at least footwork sequences aren't throwaways like in the old days; they're actually challenging skaters to show their fundamentals, instead of flying straight down the ice with mainly toe pick moves and one or 2 complex turns, and little edge work, and calling it a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And no step sequence in history prior to 2006 had a bracket/loop/counter/rocker/choctaw/twizzle all integrated into them.

    Are you sure of that? I remember seeing step sequences under 6.0 which were quite intricate.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    5 turns and 3 steps in both directions is a bit excessive, but at least footwork sequences aren't throwaways like in the old days;

    Footwork sequences were not always throwaways under the old judging system.


    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    they're actually challenging skaters to show their fundamentals, instead of flying straight down the ice with mainly toe pick moves and one or 2 complex turns, and little edge work, and calling it a day.

    "Flying down the ice" is not necessarily a bad thing. Every step, every turn becomes more difficult if you do it with more speed. Nowadays the footwork is often lacking in speed and has poor flow. I'd rather see a short, fast step sequences with not quite as many steps rather than a slow step sequences crammed with all kind of different turns and steps to fulfill the requirements which takes forever and doesn't even go with the music.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Is Miki being punished for not able to do 4Sal in the SP?
    Was Mao being punished in Vancouver for not able to replace 2A with 3A? You're going into something else now.

    5-jump combo?
    I'm not going into something else, I'm taking about what we want to measure in the sport. Right now spins have a maximum of 4 difficult variations allowed per spin. Is it necessary to measure more than that? Is it necessary to measure something like a 3Toe+2Toe+2Toe+2Toe+2Toe combination?

    The same thing applies here to footwork. The rules ask for WAY MORE than is necessary to determine if the skaters can do a good, difficult footwork sequence. As such, they waste too much time in programs, detracting from the choreography and interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    And no step sequence in history prior to 2006 had a bracket/loop/counter/rocker/choctaw/twizzle all integrated into them.
    Hence why they were able to be more musical.

    Petr Barna 1992 SP

    Those footwork sequences would be called as Level 1 these days. That's bogus. Patrick Chan wouldn't be able to execute that footwork with that level of rhythm if he practiced it for a month.

    Footwork like Barna's and Yagudin's in 2001/2002 and Kwan's in 2003/2004/2005 should be worth a lot of points. Plus, as I listed earlier, the NUMEROUS footwork sequences we saw in the early years of CoP. That footwork was good. That is what the sport should be aiming for. Too much complexity just becomes a burden, which hurts the aesthetic values that make figure skating relevant to begin with.

    Even up to through 2010 there was still a possibility for great competitive footwork that didn't take too much time (although the rules were too limiting at that point as well):

    Evan Lysacek 2010 SP

    Look at that Circular Footwork sequence. 24 seconds. Level 4. Excellent choreographic and interpretive quality. Has a clear pattern. Why do we need any more complexity than that? This is PLENTY. Anything more is completely excessive and distracting. This sequence is actually already slightly overloaded, IMO.

    It's interesting to compare that to the Straightline sequence in the same program, which becomes bogged down by unnecessary movement and strays from the pattern. Once again an example of how you can occasionally make these overly complex CoP rules work, but not consistently. Programs need to consistently look great. Without it the audience appeal is lost and the love of skating is lessened. Let's not forget that some people actually like to skate, and to skate competitively. When the performers are able to do their job better and have real freedom of movement, it shows in the performance.

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