Tuktamysheva's Career

bsfan said:

I really hope Lisa can do better than what she is doing now. She doesn't look heavy due to her relatively long limbs. While she looks normal compared to other teenagers, she looks overweight to me as skater. This makes her lack of lines and her jumps are not stable as before. Hope she will slim down and come back strong, with better programs.

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I really don't think she looks "overweight as a skater." I think it's a question of body type--she is simply a little more curvy than some other girls in skating.

She looks great here: http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Elizaveta+Tuktamysheva/Rostelecom+Cup+ISU+Grand+Prix+Day+1/TWncnbY3lhW

Her body type is perhaps close to someone like Courtney Hicks: http://img.deseretnews.com/images/article/mcontentimage/1211261/1211261.jpg (Please Courtney, ditch those half-over-the-boots tights! You are a lovely girl with gorgeous legs--why spoil the effect?)

Even skaters come in different body types. Thank goodness!

coppertop1 said:

It's really pretty sad when a teenager is trying to adjust to her new body and now she should just step aside. Is that the fate that awaits Radionova and Lipnitskaia if they have trouble when their body changes? Sad.

I'm so sick of the whole lose weight argument. It's clear she has little fat on her, just a solid build. If she's fat then we're all doomed. The constant jibes on weight are really immature and a large part of the reason why teen girls develop eating disorders. It's enough pressure for her without any implication that she's too heavy.

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Exactly!

sky_fly20 said:

have you seen Tuks jumps lately ? they are not high anymore probably because of her body and weight change
Sotnikova is the one with big jumps with bad technique of course. that's a joke if you think Tuk can have the same PCS as Julia

Tuks PCS when she does well is in 28/59 and 27/57 if she bombs
and she probably wont make Euros Team this year too
its an uphill battle for her this season and her worst transition year so far

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Tuk's jumps have never been that big, apart from 2a. She's always had good technique but her jumps were never big. This season I feel like Pogorilaya's jumps are bigger. People forget and think that because Anna is skinny and gangly, that she must have tiny whippy jumps, but it isn't the case, the 2a is low but the rest of her jumps are quite big for a girl her size. The elevation on 3lz is impressive, her 3lz-3t combo is huge, she does it well, without an axel she can still score 60 points for her SP on the GP. Plus the biggest jump mistakes she's made in her FS this season are a popped axel and 2a stepout (CoC) and 2a stepout and a fully rotated 3f fall (GPF - affected her last spin and brought her over time but still only one major jump error in that program). Her TES has been 60+ for all her internationals this season meanwhile Liza only got TES of 50 for her FS at Golden Spin. Anna's spins are also better IMO as she is more flexible. I sort of feel like Anna deserves to go to Euros at this point unless Liza knocks it out of the park at Nationals and Anna is far from her best. Idk, the results of the whole season should be taken into account I feel like, and Anna was a lot more impressive than Liza this fall IMHO. Liza has plenty of time to get her groove back, but this just hasn't been her season.

silverlake22 said:

Tuk's jumps have never been that big, apart from 2a. She's always had good technique but her jumps were never big. This season I feel like Pogorilaya's jumps are bigger. People forget and think that because Anna is skinny and gangly, that she must have tiny whippy jumps, but it isn't the case, the 2a is low but the rest of her jumps are quite big for a girl her size. The elevation on 3lz is impressive, her 3lz-3t combo is huge, she does it well, without an axel she can still score 60 points for her SP on the GP. Plus the biggest jump mistakes she's made in her FS this season are a popped axel and 2a stepout (CoC) and 2a stepout and a fully rotated 3f fall (GPF - affected her last spin and brought her over time but still only one major jump error in that program). Her TES has been 60+ for all her internationals this season meanwhile Liza only got TES of 50 for her FS at Golden Spin. Anna's spins are also better IMO as she is more flexible. I sort of feel like Anna deserves to go to Euros at this point unless Liza knocks it out of the park at Nationals and Anna is far from her best. Idk, the results of the whole season should be taken into account I feel like, and Anna was a lot more impressive than Liza this fall IMHO. Liza has plenty of time to get her groove back, but this just hasn't been her season.

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When I saw Liza live her opening combo on the FS was nice and high. She does have good technique and the height is there when she's on. I haven't seen Anna much so I really don't want to compare too closely, but Liza has the benefit of more international experience and seems to be improving (is this the case with Anna? She had a rough GPF, no?) so although it's not a 100% sure thing it will be Liza on the Euros team I wouldn't count it out just yet.

MalloryArcher said:

When I saw Liza live her opening combo on the FS was nice and high. She does have good technique and the height is there when she's on. I haven't seen Anna much so I really don't want to compare too closely, but Liza has the benefit of more international experience and seems to be improving (is this the case with Anna? She had a rough GPF, no?) so although it's not a 100% sure thing it will be Liza on the Euros team I wouldn't count it out just yet.

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her jumps are MIA this season
and her programs are the same tango and latin themes
how is that improvement

When I watched her at Euros 2013, I was right there where she landed her 3Lz 3T and her Lutz is one of the best, techinique and height and distance, for her size she covers lots of distance in her jumps. You can see Mishin's method there. But fav jump of hers is axel and loop. The Dark Eyes program she had last year was awesome and fired up the arena, I wish she had this one this year, if anything else, it is Olympic Games in Russia, Dark Eyes would do better

sky_fly20 said:

her jumps are MIA this season
and her programs are the same tango and latin themes
how is that improvement

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I agree that she shows no real diversity in her artistry. I said that already. Too much latin and tango music. This may be blunt, but if you continuously avoid classical music as a skater you start to look inherently tacky slink:...nancy kerrigan... ) Anyway as Dave Lease says Liza is total tackiness so that's not really a point to debate. What I meant was that Liza shows some improvement as this season has progressed, her perf. at Golden Spin was better than in the gp series for example.

Anyway, I'm dying to know who you like in the ladies field. We all know now who you don't like (Liza, Kaetlyn), who do you like???

MalloryArcher said:

I agree that she shows no real diversity in her artistry. I said that already. Too much latin and tango music. This may be blunt, but if you continuously avoid classical music as a skater you start to look inherently tacky slink:...nancy kerrigan... ) Anyway as Dave Lease says Liza is total tackiness so that's not really a point to debate. What I meant was that Liza shows some improvement as this season has progressed, her perf. at Golden Spin was better than in the gp series for example.

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I think anyone bashing Liza or any teenage girl should think about it from her POV. When you're young and have no expectations, everything is easy and natural. Skating is fun and everyone is excited. Then, with success, come expectations, and that can be difficult to handle, add body changes to the mix and the pressure of an Olympic year with the Olympics, and there's a lot in Liza's shoulders, that's a lot for a young and still fairly new skater to handle. Then when she starts showing signs of struggles and has been beaten by some skaters who don't have as much pressure because they're fresh and new (Lipnitskaia, for example), people write them off and say they're done, they should retire, etc etc. Everyone loves these girls when they're young and fresh but once they hit puberty and have to adjust so they're no longer consistent, it's like "Let's move on to the next fresh young prospect". It's really irksome how fickle skating fans can be. In many ways, I think ladies skating is in many ways the most unforgiving with all the body changes a girl goes through, some girls never get their form back or never re-emerge. I can see giving up on an experienced skater who has disappointed repeatedly especially if it's largely their own fault, ie: Sandhu, Bobek. Liza is not in that category.

Well said coppertop1! I for one have not given up on Liza. I've been a Brian fan for ages, so I know patience. I've loved her since she burst onto the GP senior scene, and I'm no fair weather fan! It may take time, is all. Will she make the Olympics team? I don't know. In a way, it may even be better for her not to, if she isn't "ready" yet. What would it do to her, if she had horible skates at the Olympics? with all that expectation, and having beaten out other girls for the spot? The thing about those who do NOT go, is that they always get the benefit of the doubt, and can be reckoned at the best of their abilities. If so-and-so had been allowed to go, they would have done so-and-so - whilst the one who actually DID go, is stuck with their actual performance, not some ideal could-have-been.

Of course, I admit freely, that this can, in some meaure, be sour-grapism on my part. I mean, I'd be thrilled to bits if Liza were to go to Sochi and skate brilliantly. But I also realise that this might not happen - and I won't stop loving her and her skating whatever does happen.

And oh, I don't consider Liza to be tackiness personified. Regardless of the opinion of Dave Lease. Who has actually said some really nice things about her, too. Funny nobody remembers the nice things he actually does say about skaters, isn't it?

LRK said:

Well said coppertop1! I for one have not given up on Liza. I've been a Brian fan for ages, so I know patience. I've loved her since she burst onto the GP senior scene, and I'm no fair weather fan! It may take time, is all. Will she make the Olympics team? I don't know. In a way, it may even be better for her not to, if she isn't "ready" yet. What would it do to her, if she had horible skates at the Olympics? with all that expectation, and having beaten out other girls for the spot? The thing about those who do NOT go, is that they always get the benefit of the doubt, and can be reckoned at the best of their abilities. If so-and-so had been allowed to go, they would have done so-and-so - whilst the one who actually DID go, is stuck with their actual performance, not some ideal could-have-been.

Of course, I admit freely, that this can, in some meaure, be sour-grapism on my part. I mean, I'd be thrilled to bits if Liza were to go to Sochi and skate brilliantly. But I also realise that this might not happen - and I won't stop loving her and her skating whatever does happen.

And oh, I don't consider Liza to be tackiness personified. Regardless of the opinion of Dave Lease. Who has actually said some really nice things about her, too. Funny nobody remembers the nice things he actually does say about skaters, isn't it?

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Patience is a virtue when you're a skating fan, and seeing your favourites come into bloom is all the more trying. As a big fan of Joannie Rochette, I was disappointed when she didn't skate up to her potential so watching her win silver in 2009 and her bravery and determination in Vancouver win the bronze medal was all the more sweeter. It's frustrating when a skater you love, who you KNOW can be something special fail to deliver.

Maybe the disappointment of being left off the Olympic team would be the caveat to bring her skating to a higher level, just like being left off the world team in 1999 was what brought Irina Slutskaya to a higher level. I like Liza and I have faith she will be back, she and Adelina are at the disadvantage of carrying expectation and adjusting to new their growths still. Something Julia Lipnitskaia and Elena Radionova haven't gone through at this point.

A Liza interview - this might be the portion most relevant to this thread:

“When you’re a kid, you do not really realize what’s going on with you. There is no strong responsibility at competitions. And when you do not think about it, it is easier to perform. You just skate for yourself. But the older you get, the more you begin to think about what you’re doing, for whom and why… There are different thoughts and sometimes at the wrong time. But sooner or later it had to happen. You just have to survive this time and understand yourself.” Elizaveta noted.

http://fskating.com/2013/12/tuktamysheva-hopes-to-get-spot-for-european-champs.html

LRK said:

A Liza interview - this might be the portion most relevant to this thread:

“When you’re a kid, you do not really realize what’s going on with you. There is no strong responsibility at competitions. And when you do not think about it, it is easier to perform. You just skate for yourself. But the older you get, the more you begin to think about what you’re doing, for whom and why… There are different thoughts and sometimes at the wrong time. But sooner or later it had to happen. You just have to survive this time and understand yourself.” Elizaveta noted.

http://fskating.com/2013/12/tuktamysheva-hopes-to-get-spot-for-european-champs.html

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Well said. What she's going through is normal. Everyone has gone through it at some point. They learn, they come back stronger than before. I'm sure Liza will.

I really want to defend Liza, but I do think she is quite tacky, though inexplicably I adore her tackiness. The problem is that her programs are designed to require enthusiasm on a full scale to work. While she is on she is on fire, while she doesn't feel up to it the programs really fall into a tacky hell. There simply isn't any go between, and it all comes down to whether she lands the first 3-3 combo.

LRK said:

A Liza interview - this might be the portion most relevant to this thread:

“When you’re a kid, you do not really realize what’s going on with you. There is no strong responsibility at competitions. And when you do not think about it, it is easier to perform. You just skate for yourself. But the older you get, the more you begin to think about what you’re doing, for whom and why… There are different thoughts and sometimes at the wrong time. But sooner or later it had to happen. You just have to survive this time and understand yourself.” Elizaveta noted.

http://fskating.com/2013/12/tuktamysheva-hopes-to-get-spot-for-european-champs.html

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There has almost never been a time in her competitive career where she hasn't bombed short programs. For her it's not a case of getting older and becoming more stressed. In 2009 she bombed the Russian nationals sp and same thing in 2013 worlds. The sp has always been a problem and she can be totally inelgible for even jr competitions and there be no stakes and she bombs. You van go back even further than 2009 when she was 12 and she just bombs sp. it's really not knowing how to do them. It may seem weird to say a skater doesn't know how to do an sp but that's the case with her.

LRK said:

A recent Liza interview:

http://fskating.com/2013/12/tuktamysheva-hopes-to-get-spot-for-european-champs.html

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Thank you for the link to the interview. I'm glad to hear both that her injury has healed and that she seems to have a positive mental outlook on the struggle she's had this season. I really hope she has a good showing at nationals and gets to go to Europeans.

Also, Happy 17th birthday, Liza!

Welcome to Golden Skate, Meggion!

it appears a clue to the problem has been found

Tuk appears to have lose focus, ill prepared and with her growing pains
it was her old coach Veretennikova who asked to change her SP, whom both have not been working together since the 2013 Europeans
seems being detached from her old coach affected her alot,

maybe its time for Tuk to return to Veretennikova, or find a new coach ?

http://itar-tass.com/sport/863270

" With Elizabeth I stopped working immediately after the European Championship in Zagreb , when my student won bronze in the competition , and in the long program was able to get ahead of an Italian champion Carolina Kostner continent - said Veretennikova . - However, I watched the performance of Elizabeth at the national championships in Sochi I can say that is functionally and technically to this tournament she was ready not the best way . taught her I was 5 years old , so all can see and feel its movement. what I saw in rentals this season does not correspond to the techniques I taught her . Lisa always been confident and well performed when programs were knurled - now I have not noticed . "

The coach also said that after the success of the European Championship for the skater Alexei Mishin , which for many years together Veretennikova coached Tuktamysheva , decided to work independently with this athlete. "I am grieved that gap - admitted Veretennikova . - Lisa was a matter of my life , we had been together for many years . After what happened , I was morally difficult to continue its activities in Russia , and I went to work abroad. "

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her old coach might make wonders for her career again
now I'm thinking leaving Mishin might be for the best after all

Ach, I had forgotten all about this thread! The following comment that I posted in her Fan Fest thread yesterday would have suited this thread better!

CaroLiza_fan said:

After the disappointment of her results at Russian Nationals, I hope this is not a sign that Liza is considering a new career:

http://distilleryimage0.ak.instagram.com/e8caa42e6f0711e38e6512353404eac4_8.jpg

Mind you, if she gets up to speed quickly enough, she could still compete at Sochi...


DON'T WORRY MY LOVELY. I STILL BELIEVE IN YOU!!!

CaroLiza_fan

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Getting back to the current discussion, and I agree with sky_fly20. Liza has achieved a lot with Mishin, but I really do feel that the time has come to move on.

Mishin has had a lot of success in the past. But we saw at Russian Nationals that none of Mishin's charges performed to the standard that we know they are capable of.

For as long as I have been a member of this forum, sky_fly20 has been saying that Tuktamysheva and Gachinski are finished. But, after the events of the past week, even sky_fly has admitted that it is not the skaters that are finished, but the coach.

If they are to get back to where they were 2 or 3 years ago, Liza and Artur need to try something different. But I suspect that they are too scared to take the chance of leaving Mishin.

With Plushy retiring this season, it is the perfect chance for Mishin to retire gracefully along with his star student. And at the same time it would give his younger students the opportunity to look elsewhere.

It is always a risk to move to a different coach. It may not work out, and hence might destroy your confidence completely. But, if you are moving to somebody you have worked with before, it is a massive help.

So, although I don't know anything about her, I do think working with Veretennikova would be a good first step for Liza should she leave Mishin. It would help build up her confidence, and if the results start to come, this in turn would make her more appealing to the "star coaches".

Unfortunately, I don't think Artur has the luxury of being able to go back to somebody he has worked with before.

So please, Alexei, do the dignified thing and fall on your sword. You have had massive success in the past, but the time has come to think of your students and do what is best for their future.

CaroLiza_fan

Mishin and his coaching philosophies are badly outdated at this point. He was a great coach who had alot of success, but any of their top skaters should steer as far away from him as possible. The only thing that makes him still relevant is Plushenko turning into the wart that just wont go away, and his loyalty to Mishin.

Yes Tuktamysheva, if you want any figure in Russian ladies skating, Worlds, Olympics, run as far away from Mishin as possible, and do it ASAP.

I find a lack of warmth in the artistry of Mishin's skaters. This is fine for men but it is a quality that holds his female skaters back. Almost all the top skaters do 3-3s and the triples through the lutz, so it is the artistry that sets the great skaters apart from the good ones. Even when she was nailing her jumps her programs were uninteresting and her costumes unflattering. I agree she needs a change, and it would not surprise me to see her in the top 5 in the world within a year if she got a better coach and choreographer.