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Thread: Is Romeo and Juliet working for Ashley?

  1. #31
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    when she is clean it is fine; it is probably not the best for her but it is fine. not great. At least she is clear of her gender and you know she isn't trying to be Romeo - unlike Hanyu who sometimes comes off as a gender issued Romeo/Juiliet with a lovely Johnny Weir flounce running across his chest.

  2. #32
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I understand why she did it... but I think if she wanted to use a tried and true war horse, Don Q would've been a better fit than R&J...

    that being said, I don't think it's as awful as people make it out to be...

  3. #33
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    [QUOTE=Icey;805583]
    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Okay, Ashley is clearly not Juliet because:

    (1) She is not thirteen.
    (2) Ashley should not be portraying an angsty barely-teenager. She is more than twenty years old.
    (3) This is her own spin on things. I honestly don't want to see overtly-literal portrayals all the time.

    Re not being 13: Very few, if any actresses, who have played the role, especially on the stage, have been thirteen. Vivien Leigh was in her mid-twenties , I believe, when she played the role on Broadway with Laurence Olivier. Thirteen was not that young when life expectancy during the time was so low compared to today.

    If it is her spin on things, what is the spin, especially when she was implying she was stabbing herself in one of the performances?
    Maybe the problem is Ashley does not clearly understand what she is doing with the program.

    Both Tara and Johnny sent her a message she needs to hear---and soon.
    OT -- Though life expectancy was certainly shorter in Shakespeare's time, I'm fairly certainly that a bride of thirteen was not so common. Most women were, on average, a few years older than that before they got married.

  4. #34
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    Aftertherain, What you say if true for those in Shakespeare's England and his time. R&J does not take place in England, but Italy and significantly earlier than Shakespeare's time.
    During the medieval age, a marriage could take place from the age of seven if there was consent, but for the girl, consent could come from her parents even if she herself didn’t want the match.
    As I indicated, Romeo and Juliet is a play about Italian families. Lady Capulet had given birth to her first child by the time she had reached Juliet's age: "By my count, I was your mother much upon these years that you are now a maid". LOL Maybe next season, Julia should skate R&J.

  5. #35
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    I think one of the problems is the sharpness in thematic contrast that exists between her short (strong contemporary warrior woman type aura) and free (all of the Juliet characterizations). She embodies the short program character so well, making the contrast (her relative shortcomings) stand out unflatteringly unfortunately.

  6. #36
    Custom Title chapis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Aftertherain, What you say if true for those in Shakespeare's England and his time. R&J does not take place in England, but Italy and significantly earlier than Shakespeare's time.
    During the medieval age, a marriage could take place from the age of seven if there was consent, but for the girl, consent could come from her parents even if she herself didn’t want the match.
    As I indicated, Romeo and Juliet is a play about Italian families. Lady Capulet had given birth to her first child by the time she had reached Juliet's age: "By my count, I was your mother much upon these years that you are now a maid". LOL Maybe next season, Julia should skate R&J.
    But those marriages were arranged, the kids were not really in love, even the little girls played with dolls after the marriage.

  7. #37
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    The problem is that Ashley can't portray lovey-dovey girly types. She can do a fighter archetype. Not sure why she chose R&J. It's too familiar, and people expect certain things from it, and she's not delivering it, which is OK if she delivers something else even more satisfying than what people are expecting. But that hasn't happened either. I don't think she's cerebral enough to do an abstract, modern interpretation/retelling of R&J either. (BTW - I'm not calling her stupid by this remark, but that I don't think she's reflective enough (and artistically mature and sure of herself at this point) to pull it off.)

  8. #38
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    To put it bluntly (since others have with Hanyu), Ashley is too "butch" (note quotation marks) for R&J. She is a lovely young woman, but she is having to play against type with Juliet and is not skilled enough to do it.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    To put it bluntly (since others have with Hanyu), Ashley is too "butch" (note quotation marks) for R&J. She is a lovely young woman, but she is having to play against type with Juliet and is not skilled enough to do it.
    I'd prefer to describe her as "not lyrical". She pulled off her programs well the past two years with somewhat heavier pieces, and this music probably isn't complementing her natural style as well. We have so many discussions about programs but they factor in to the scores so much less than the person who is skating to them. No program would move her into the top 2 favorites or outside the top 5 favorites, assuming a competitive technical layout.

  10. #40
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    I like Ashley, though I would hardly call myself a fan. But in defence of Juliet, please note that she was no shrinking violet or fainting tight laced heroine. She takes as much action as Romeo, and was equally hot blooded.

  11. #41
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    Again, I think the problem is, for whatever reason, Ashley does not connect with this music. I don't think all musical pieces need to be interpreted as if the skater was portraying the principal in the story - but they do need to interpret the music. That ain't happening here. She either doesn't get it or doesn't know how to feel what she's skating to. She's merely going from one spin or jump or piece of footwork to the next one - as is she's ticking them off in her head!

    I hate to say it, but she's going to need alot of help from other skaters if she's to be on the Olympic podium.

    eta: I don't think the term "butch" is appropriate for Ashley! I agree that "not lyrical" is a much better choice with no implications.

  12. #42
    Custom Title Sasha'sSpins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    To put it bluntly (since others have with Hanyu), Ashley is too "butch" (note quotation marks) for R&J. She is a lovely young woman, but she is having to play against type with Juliet and is not skilled enough to do it.
    This is scarily going into politically incorrect territory but in my neck of the woods a 'butch' woman is usually rather 'masculine' (haircut, clothes, even the way she walks/carries herself), and often tends to be a lesbian. Not that there is anything wrong with that but Ashley doesn't come off as 'butch' in that sense of the word at all. She just comes off as not ice-princessy or girlie-girl but a tough, strong young woman. I thought "Black Swan" was fabulous for her and that is generally a balletic piece. I loved her "Red Violin" persona too.

    I do agree with those who say that R&J is all wrong for Ashley. She just does not come off as a 'Juliet' in any sense of the word imo. She's tried hard but it's just not happening. I thought I'd love her program by now but it's just left me cold unfortunately. It doesn't feel genuine or authentic on her.

  13. #43
    Custom Title Sochi_2014's Avatar
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    There is nothing wrong with the program. I agree with many others that it is not her best, but that doesn't mean anything is wrong with it. Even without being completely clean (step out on the second 3flip and two footed on the 3-3) at Trophee Eric Bompard she scored 127.62. If the program is skated cleanly, she is looking at a score over 133, which is great. Currently, with her SB score, she is less than 4 points behind the 2nd highest FS score this season (Julia).http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/...14/sbtslfs.htm Throw Yuna into the mix, and I'd say Ashley has a good shot at bronze.

    The judges like her LP. Even with the mistakes, she's scoring well with it. There is no guarantee that she will skate clean in Sochi, but if she does have 2 clean skates, she's in great contention for a medal.

    Although I did love her Black Swan and Samson & Delilah, I think it is best that she doesn't go back to old programs. I think it is important for skaters to branch out and try new things. It's a trial and error process. However, next season (if she stays in the game), l'd like to see her skate to something a little more upbeat (not so somber). Not funny music though, God do I hate funny music. She'd be very suited to skate to something unique, like a Cirque du Soleil medley. Imagine her skating to Allegria, it would be perfect for her natural style, and she would be able to smile : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy0RUCjRZzo. Obviously it's repetitive, but mixed in with another Cirque song, it could be great. Maybe mixed in with this, to slow it down: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6tE6laWTEc

    One thing for sure though, is I like her first dress better than the new one. It was better suited for her body type, and made her look more elegant out there. Maybe just a different color, like an off white, or even a lavender color.

  14. #44
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sochi_2014 View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the program. I agree with many others that it is not her best, but that doesn't mean anything is wrong with it.
    If something isn't your best, then there is inherently something wrong with it. I understand what you're saying, but I can't even agree with "it's a good enough effort, even though it's not her best". Ashley's current LP lacks cohesion and interest. It's in the bottom 3 of all the LP's she has done since 2007, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sochi_2014 View Post
    The judges like her LP. Even with the mistakes, she's scoring well with it.
    How is she scoring well with it? She was beaten by Joannie Rochette, a retired skater, at Japan Open. She has been beaten in the LP in every competition she has entered this season. She should be scoring 70 in PCS. The highest she has received so far was 66 at Skate America, which had home ice inflation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sochi_2014 View Post
    Currently, with her SB score, she is less than 4 points behind the 2nd highest FS score this season (Julia)
    If Julia skates in Sochi like she did at Skate Canada, she's going to score around 7 points higher. Wagner doesn't really have a higher potential currently; the big problem with the program is it doesn't go anywhere. It's not the kind of program where you can even say "just wait until she does it perfectly, it will all come together." There is no special mood or choreographic idea being presented by the whole program. Even if she skates absolutely clean, people aren't going to be moved or incredibly excited by it. There's just not enough build and well-matched movement.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Sochi_2014's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    How is she scoring well with it? She was beaten by Joannie Rochette, a retired skater, at Japan Open. She has been beaten in the LP in every competition she has entered this season. She should be scoring 70 in PCS. The highest she has received so far was 66 at Skate America, which had home ice inflation.
    All else set aside, Wagner did make it to the GPF and placed third, even with a few mistakes. So, I wouldn't say her season has been unsuccessful and that she has been scored badly. She's done very well for herself in an Olympic year, despite the fact that her LP isn't the best for her. And yes, having the 6th best LP score of the season is successful, especially since she's just about 2 points behind the 3rd highest scoring LP this season (Adelina). It's all about strategy. Sometimes peaking too early can be dangerous. A la Alissa Czisny in 2005/2006.

    Although, I do agree with you Blades of Passion, that if Julia skates cleanly again, she will have higher points than at Skate Canada, I didn't take that into account.

    I guess we will all see come Nationals and Sochi, if she can spruce up the program. Only time will tell!

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