Germany can be out of the Olympics due to the anti-gay law | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Germany can be out of the Olympics due to the anti-gay law

pista04

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
The bottom line is : What does the modern Olympic movement stand for? Differences between countries will always happen, that's a given. However, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Would it be acceptable to give the Olympics to a country where women showing their legs in public is condemned and/or forbidden? Should we respect that as well? Would that be consistent with the Olympic charter?

This is the exact point I was trying to make. If the Olympic Movement wishes to present itself using specific narratives, then they should not be surprised that narratives regarding boycotts arise if they select a host that do not even reflect their own narratives, let alone international standards of citizenship rights that are reflected in every major international governmental organization.

And to respond to someone amount the potential to cause feelings of alientation: Yes, it would be alienating some states but history has shown through South Africa that the prevention of a state from the Olympic Games can have serious political repercussions and be one component of political change for the better.
 

MalloryArcher

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
People should not use their own country's standard to measure another country and determine wether that country is qualified or not. It is a decision of the whole governing body of the sports which is not formed and controlled by one or two powerful countries in the world. The up roar from some people in a few western countries on taking away hosting rights from China, or from Russia, or from Qatar can only show one thing - these people are arrogant. It is not your country, not your call. Try to learn a little bit how to get along with other countries!:sarcasm:

I am sorry to sound aggressive right now but that is a completely ignorant and disrespectful viewpoint you are advocating. You are basically saying "you have no right to criticize us because discriminating against gays is just how we roll here in Russia". NO NO NO. Discrimination based on sex, race, sexuality or any other innate part of you personhood is WRONG and contrary to INTERNATIONAL standards of human rights and decency. The Olympics are for everyone, INCLUDING gays, and giving the games to Russia has created a situation where they do not feel free to take part fully and without fear. I do not say that Russia is bad overall, or that there are no redeeming features of the people (I'm sure there are) but on the issue of LGBT rights and many other human rights issues Russia is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do not accept homophobia as a quirk of culture in any place I see it. It's wrong and it ruins lives.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
I am sorry to sound aggressive right now but that is a completely ignorant and disrespectful viewpoint you are advocating. You are basically saying "you have no right to criticize us because discriminating against gays is just how we roll here in Russia". NO NO NO. Discrimination based on sex, race, sexuality or any other innate part of you personhood is WRONG and contrary to INTERNATIONAL standards of human rights and decency. The Olympics are for everyone, INCLUDING gays, and giving the games to Russia has created a situation where they do not feel free to take part fully and without fear. I do not say that Russia is bad overall, or that there are no redeeming features of the people (I'm sure there are) but on the issue of LGBT rights and many other human rights issues Russia is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do not accept homophobia as a quirk of culture in any place I see it. It's wrong and it ruins lives.

I suspect going to the middle having lived there, its not the cup of tea for everyone
most would be running back to Russia and wont have no complains at all, lol

Im sure after the Olympics nobody would give a fuzz about this issue again
and will have to wait until 2022 World Cup because 2018 is in the middle east
critics will rattle, ponder and shake in fear ever criticizing a gulf arab state.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
The World Cup has a different governing body and a different charter than the IOC. It's governing body is FIFA, not the IOC.

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/

It is even more blatantly corrupt than the IOC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/sports/soccer/08iht-soccer08.html?_r=0

In fact, Qatar's successful World Cup bid was corrupt, and there is already outcry.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/sports/soccer/08iht-soccer08.html?_r=0

In an interview with German magazine Die Zeit, Blatter said Qatar's successful bid to host the 2022 World Cup was won with the help of "political influences" from prominent figures in Europe.

"Yes, definitely there was direct political influences," Blatter said. "European leaders recommended to their voting members to vote for Qatar, because they have great economic interests with this country."


There were bribes:

There are many people who want the tournament taken out of Qatar entirely. Ever since the hosting rights were won was won - indeed, before the vote to award them was even taken - there were many allegations of bribery and corruption in the bidding process.

Two members of the FIFA Executive Committee were suspended in 2010 after the Sunday Times in London reported that they took $1.5 million each in bribes from Qatar's World Cup bid committee.

The athletes are complaining because Qatar in the summer is a brutal place to play soccer. It looks like the World Cup will be moved to winter to avoid this problem, but then the timing of the Cup conflicts with playing schedules in many countries.

It's possible that the World Cup will not be held in Qatar after all.
 

MalloryArcher

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
I suspect going to the middle having lived there, its not the cup of tea for everyone
most would be running back to Russia and wont have no complains at all, lol

Im sure after the Olympics nobody would give a fuzz about this issue again
and will have to wait until 2022 World Cup because 2018 is in the middle east
critics will rattle, ponder and shake in fear ever criticizing a gulf arab state.

I don't really follow what you're trying to say. Who lives in the middle?

I will say that I don't have a problem criticizing an Arab state like Qatar, and people were talking about their human rights record as soon as that decision for the 2022 WC was taken. And anyway, two wrongs don't make a right.
 

MalloryArcher

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Looking at the IOC's charter, they seem to interpret the Charter's respect of human diversity to include sexual and cultural minorities. I recall when this law was first passed, Denmark quickly issued an official protest to Russia by citing violation of the IOC Charter, EU Standards and UN conventions. While Russia isn't part of the EU, it is a member of the UN and Russia has a moral obligation to respect those standards in which it is part of even if it may not a signatory to every concerned resolution. Furthermore, EU has been clear that respect of human rights is a pre-condition of any long-term EU-Russia partnership or any relationships between EU and another country or super-national organization for that matter.

Russia is indeed not a member of the EU, but is a member of the Council of Europe and a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. Many believe the anti-gay laws violate the Convention, and some LGBT groups are taking cases to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg to challenge the law. I suspect, as with the recent case against Russia in the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia will just chose to ignore its Treaty responsibilities and continue with its path. There are no real ramifications for doing this beyond increased international isolation, which I suppose they don't really care about.

Because of this, although I personally won't be going to Sochi, I hope there are some who do go and make it known to Russia what the international community thinks of those laws. Peaceful protests are in order. And I really don't care how nice Tatiana Volosozhar is in person, I don't put her winning a gold medal above the chance to show Russia how wrong they are on gay rights. I won't support a Russian team until this law changes.
 

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
I won't support a Russian team until this law changes.

That is VERY unfair to the Russian skaters who have had absolutely nothing to do with this law, and whose only crime, in your eyes, is to be Russian. Did you know Evgeni Plushenko was one of the high-profile signatories on a petition against these laws? Will you hope he fails, just because he is Russian? Or would you prefer him to win the gold, because he supported your cause? Oh wait, I know what you want; you want him to go out to the middle of the ice, lay out a huge rainbow flag, tear up his Russian passport, and withdraw.

As I keep saying, the Olympics went to China with barely a tenth of the fuss being kicked up over this. And China should never have been awarded the Olympics at all. So there you go.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
That is VERY unfair to the Russian skaters who have had absolutely nothing to do with this law, and whose only crime, in your eyes, is to be Russian. Did you know Evgeni Plushenko was one of the high-profile signatories on a petition against these laws? Will you hope he fails, just because he is Russian? Or would you prefer him to win the gold, because he supported your cause? Oh wait, I know what you want; you want him to go out to the middle of the ice, lay out a huge rainbow flag, tear up his Russian passport, and withdraw.

As I keep saying, the Olympics went to China with barely a tenth of the fuss being kicked up over this. And China should never have been awarded the Olympics at all. So there you go.
Oh, please. There was a lot of criticism about China's human rights issues and there were people who were persona non grata in Beijing because they spoke out about it (e.g. Joey Cheek).

As for Russian skaters, I know that Kovtun has used homophobic language on social media and I've heard from a credible source that Trankov has made homophobic comments more than once, though I can't confirm that. Volosozhar is by most accounts a sweetheart, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. I just wish she'd pick better material to skate to. Since none of the Russian skaters are great favorites of mine, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing others on the podium.

Plushenko would make an excellent flagbearer, though.
 

MalloryArcher

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
That is VERY unfair to the Russian skaters who have had absolutely nothing to do with this law, and whose only crime, in your eyes, is to be Russian. Did you know Evgeni Plushenko was one of the high-profile signatories on a petition against these laws? Will you hope he fails, just because he is Russian? Or would you prefer him to win the gold, because he supported your cause? Oh wait, I know what you want; you want him to go out to the middle of the ice, lay out a huge rainbow flag, tear up his Russian passport, and withdraw.

As I keep saying, the Olympics went to China with barely a tenth of the fuss being kicked up over this. And China should never have been awarded the Olympics at all. So there you go.

I did not know Mr Plushchenko signed a petition against the law. My personal esteem for him is growing :) I would like him even more if he did what you are suggesting.

That's nice and everything, but I still won't support Russian athletes unless the law is reversed, and I don't think that is "unfair" to the Russian athletes. They don't need my support to win medals. I am not required to support athletes for the any reason. And i have already said MULTIPLE TIMES I don't wish for any skater to perform badly. Not supporting them is not the same as wishing them ill. I want other teams to perform better. There is a difference.

As with China, like I said also before, two wrongs don't make a right.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I may not agree with a skater's religion, political views, country, etc... but it's a very narrowminded and childish attitude to somehow negate their accomplishments or ability (or support, if that's the word you want to use) because of it (trust me, as a child, that's how I chose my favorites). It is the same as saying I don't like Skater A because he's gay, or Skater B because they're black. Especially when it's based on what country they skate for and not an opinion they *may* have.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I may not agree with a skater's religion, political views, country, etc... but it's a very narrowminded and childish attitude to somehow negate their accomplishments or ability (or support, if that's the word you want to use) because of it (trust me, as a child, that's how I chose my favorites). It is the same as saying I don't like Skater A because he's gay, or Skater B because they're black. Especially when it's based on what country they skate for and not an opinion they *may* have.
I don't think it's at all the same, Toni. A person cannot choose his race, ethnicity, country of origin or sexual orientation, but political opinions and even religious views can be changed and adapted. I don't actively seek to find out what anyone's political views are, but if a high profile person chooses to present them in a public forum (and that can include social media) that can affect my impression of them, for good or bad. It doesn't negate their professional accomplishments, but it can certainly impact my ability to take pleasure in these accomplishments.
 

Alex D

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
By the way, those people who write that Russia should be..punished? Yeah, I see ur point, from where you are going, but still. Will Putin read this forum and see your outrage? Will ISU read it and finally get what a monster hosts the Olys? The answer is NO. But? for example, I had a lovely baad experience here and opportunity to read the comments such as " Russia is homophobic. Bad. Sportsmen are Russians = bad. Putin is Russian = bad. We want to see the good ones win" Do you know that many years Soviet government told people that foreigners dislike the Russians? Now, reading this and being Russian I fell..how to put it...quite uncomfortable. Cause following the logic I have a conclusion "Being Russian is bad, cause their president is a d-head"

Believe me, as a German I heard horrible things in my life as well. Its just how people "express their anger" about certain things. You should not let it get close to you.

The Russians I met at FS events but also off ice so to speak have always been very kind.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Because of this, although I personally won't be going to Sochi, I hope there are some who do go and make it known to Russia what the international community thinks of those laws. Peaceful protests are in order. And I really don't care how nice Tatiana Volosozhar is in person, I don't put her winning a gold medal above the chance to show Russia how wrong they are on gay rights. I won't support a Russian team until this law changes.

what the ? :unsure: being intolerable of other countries policies and others opinions
doesn't that make you a hypocrite

pls stop equating international community as European Countries
its racist, bias and very ethno centric
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
what the ? :unsure: being intolerable of other countries policies and others opinions
doesn't that make you a hypocrite

So disagreeing with a country's laws makes one a hypocrite? There are foul laws all around the world and when the international community disagrees with them they aren't doing it out of disrespect but because it fundamentally violates the rights of citizens. It is absolutely valid for other countries to denounce discrimination and persecution of people.

Asking people to respect Russia's discrimination, as its their prerogative to do whatever they want to their citizens, is not the way the world works nor the way it should work.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
Asking people to respect Russia's discrimination, as its their prerogative to do whatever they want to their citizens, is not the way the world works nor the way it should work.

this mindset is very very wrong :disapp:
its like you are interfering ones own cultural policies and people's perception

lets say you have naked runs in San Francisco ( not sure is that legal there ? ) and you go to another country
you follow that countries rules and you wouldn't want the habit you have at home exported to some asian conservative countries
of course that will get you arrested !!
 

YesWay

四年もかけて&#
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 28, 2013
Japan never apologizing for victims of comfort women , nanjing massacre etc.
Um. There are probably plenty of reasons to point the finger at Japan, just like most countries. But lack of apologies for those are not among them.

Japan HAS officially apologised for those, more than once. And paid compensation. Despite a handful of idiot Japanese politicians throwing spanners into the works.

The trouble is, the apologies can never be good enough, and indeed Asian countries don't WANT Japan to apologise - they make it as diplomatically/politically difficult as they can, to prevent it.

Because it's such a handy go-to... to wheel out when things are going badly at home, and the politicians want to look all strong and nationalistic, and divert attention from domestic affairs.

More info --> here. Buy the book if it's something that interests you.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
[SUB][/SUB]So, sky_fly, just to be clear, you think the international community has no place to intervene when a country is persecuting or discriminating against its citizens. And you think it is a country's prerogative to discriminate and persecute its citizens - because those people are THEIR citizens - and are thereby justified when they do so.

Tolerance and human rights isn't some western ideal that is being enforced on other countries. It's something that should be available to all people regardless of nationality. That's why it's referred to as human rights.
 

sky_fly20

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 20, 2011
[SUB][/SUB]

Tolerance and human rights isn't some western ideal that is being enforced on other countries. It's something that should be available to all people regardless of nationality. That's why it's referred to as human rights.

of course human rights should exist but should not be defined by the UN or other international western governing body
it should be defined from a countries borders only what the term human rights mean or whatever rights they think it is and means for its citizens

e.g: circumcision, probably 1/5 of the world is circumcised in men, say the UN appeals this is violation of humans body
this will cause polarization and jews, muslims and many countries with circumcision tradition will of course disagree
what makes female circumcision an issue and mens not see ?
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
There are bigots in every country and good people in every country. It's disgusting when the bigots are in charge, and it happens particularly in nations where fear pervades all aspects of society.

Fear has been a part of Russia for a very long time. It's unfortunate and a part of the national identity. This leads to authoritarian rule and persecution of all kinds of different people.

As an American with Russian family background, I hope one day the people as a whole will learn to let go of their fears and embrace a more open and free society.
 

Pasdedeux

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
this mindset is very very wrong :disapp:
its like you are interfering ones own cultural policies and people's perception

lets say you have naked runs in San Francisco ( not sure is that legal there ? ) and you go to another country
you follow that countries rules and you wouldn't want the habit you have at home exported to some asian conservative countries
of course that will get you arrested !!

Unlike naked runs in San Francisco, discrimination against gay people condemns to lifelong misery a group of people who have done nobody any harm. Not having the liberty to go naked in public is not at all equivalent to trying to force people to hide their identity and become someone else. For no good reason.
 
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