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Thread: Germany can be out of the Olympics due to the anti-gay law

  1. #61
    Custom Title pista04's Avatar
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    The bottom line is : What does the modern Olympic movement stand for? Differences between countries will always happen, that's a given. However, the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Would it be acceptable to give the Olympics to a country where women showing their legs in public is condemned and/or forbidden? Should we respect that as well? Would that be consistent with the Olympic charter?
    This is the exact point I was trying to make. If the Olympic Movement wishes to present itself using specific narratives, then they should not be surprised that narratives regarding boycotts arise if they select a host that do not even reflect their own narratives, let alone international standards of citizenship rights that are reflected in every major international governmental organization.

    And to respond to someone amount the potential to cause feelings of alientation: Yes, it would be alienating some states but history has shown through South Africa that the prevention of a state from the Olympic Games can have serious political repercussions and be one component of political change for the better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    People should not use their own country's standard to measure another country and determine wether that country is qualified or not. It is a decision of the whole governing body of the sports which is not formed and controlled by one or two powerful countries in the world. The up roar from some people in a few western countries on taking away hosting rights from China, or from Russia, or from Qatar can only show one thing - these people are arrogant. It is not your country, not your call. Try to learn a little bit how to get along with other countries!
    I am sorry to sound aggressive right now but that is a completely ignorant and disrespectful viewpoint you are advocating. You are basically saying "you have no right to criticize us because discriminating against gays is just how we roll here in Russia". NO NO NO. Discrimination based on sex, race, sexuality or any other innate part of you personhood is WRONG and contrary to INTERNATIONAL standards of human rights and decency. The Olympics are for everyone, INCLUDING gays, and giving the games to Russia has created a situation where they do not feel free to take part fully and without fear. I do not say that Russia is bad overall, or that there are no redeeming features of the people (I'm sure there are) but on the issue of LGBT rights and many other human rights issues Russia is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do not accept homophobia as a quirk of culture in any place I see it. It's wrong and it ruins lives.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalloryArcher View Post
    I am sorry to sound aggressive right now but that is a completely ignorant and disrespectful viewpoint you are advocating. You are basically saying "you have no right to criticize us because discriminating against gays is just how we roll here in Russia". NO NO NO. Discrimination based on sex, race, sexuality or any other innate part of you personhood is WRONG and contrary to INTERNATIONAL standards of human rights and decency. The Olympics are for everyone, INCLUDING gays, and giving the games to Russia has created a situation where they do not feel free to take part fully and without fear. I do not say that Russia is bad overall, or that there are no redeeming features of the people (I'm sure there are) but on the issue of LGBT rights and many other human rights issues Russia is WRONG WRONG WRONG. I do not accept homophobia as a quirk of culture in any place I see it. It's wrong and it ruins lives.
    I suspect going to the middle having lived there, its not the cup of tea for everyone
    most would be running back to Russia and wont have no complains at all, lol

    Im sure after the Olympics nobody would give a fuzz about this issue again
    and will have to wait until 2022 World Cup because 2018 is in the middle east
    critics will rattle, ponder and shake in fear ever criticizing a gulf arab state.

  4. #64
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    The World Cup has a different governing body and a different charter than the IOC. It's governing body is FIFA, not the IOC.

    http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/

    It is even more blatantly corrupt than the IOC.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/sp...er08.html?_r=0

    In fact, Qatar's successful World Cup bid was corrupt, and there is already outcry.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/sp...er08.html?_r=0

    In an interview with German magazine Die Zeit, Blatter said Qatar's successful bid to host the 2022 World Cup was won with the help of "political influences" from prominent figures in Europe.

    "Yes, definitely there was direct political influences," Blatter said. "European leaders recommended to their voting members to vote for Qatar, because they have great economic interests with this country."

    There were bribes:

    There are many people who want the tournament taken out of Qatar entirely. Ever since the hosting rights were won was won - indeed, before the vote to award them was even taken - there were many allegations of bribery and corruption in the bidding process.

    Two members of the FIFA Executive Committee were suspended in 2010 after the Sunday Times in London reported that they took $1.5 million each in bribes from Qatar's World Cup bid committee.
    The athletes are complaining because Qatar in the summer is a brutal place to play soccer. It looks like the World Cup will be moved to winter to avoid this problem, but then the timing of the Cup conflicts with playing schedules in many countries.

    It's possible that the World Cup will not be held in Qatar after all.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    I suspect going to the middle having lived there, its not the cup of tea for everyone
    most would be running back to Russia and wont have no complains at all, lol

    Im sure after the Olympics nobody would give a fuzz about this issue again
    and will have to wait until 2022 World Cup because 2018 is in the middle east
    critics will rattle, ponder and shake in fear ever criticizing a gulf arab state.
    I don't really follow what you're trying to say. Who lives in the middle?

    I will say that I don't have a problem criticizing an Arab state like Qatar, and people were talking about their human rights record as soon as that decision for the 2022 WC was taken. And anyway, two wrongs don't make a right.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Looking at the IOC's charter, they seem to interpret the Charter's respect of human diversity to include sexual and cultural minorities. I recall when this law was first passed, Denmark quickly issued an official protest to Russia by citing violation of the IOC Charter, EU Standards and UN conventions. While Russia isn't part of the EU, it is a member of the UN and Russia has a moral obligation to respect those standards in which it is part of even if it may not a signatory to every concerned resolution. Furthermore, EU has been clear that respect of human rights is a pre-condition of any long-term EU-Russia partnership or any relationships between EU and another country or super-national organization for that matter.
    Russia is indeed not a member of the EU, but is a member of the Council of Europe and a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights. Many believe the anti-gay laws violate the Convention, and some LGBT groups are taking cases to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg to challenge the law. I suspect, as with the recent case against Russia in the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea, Russia will just chose to ignore its Treaty responsibilities and continue with its path. There are no real ramifications for doing this beyond increased international isolation, which I suppose they don't really care about.

    Because of this, although I personally won't be going to Sochi, I hope there are some who do go and make it known to Russia what the international community thinks of those laws. Peaceful protests are in order. And I really don't care how nice Tatiana Volosozhar is in person, I don't put her winning a gold medal above the chance to show Russia how wrong they are on gay rights. I won't support a Russian team until this law changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MalloryArcher View Post
    I won't support a Russian team until this law changes.
    That is VERY unfair to the Russian skaters who have had absolutely nothing to do with this law, and whose only crime, in your eyes, is to be Russian. Did you know Evgeni Plushenko was one of the high-profile signatories on a petition against these laws? Will you hope he fails, just because he is Russian? Or would you prefer him to win the gold, because he supported your cause? Oh wait, I know what you want; you want him to go out to the middle of the ice, lay out a huge rainbow flag, tear up his Russian passport, and withdraw.

    As I keep saying, the Olympics went to China with barely a tenth of the fuss being kicked up over this. And China should never have been awarded the Olympics at all. So there you go.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    That is VERY unfair to the Russian skaters who have had absolutely nothing to do with this law, and whose only crime, in your eyes, is to be Russian. Did you know Evgeni Plushenko was one of the high-profile signatories on a petition against these laws? Will you hope he fails, just because he is Russian? Or would you prefer him to win the gold, because he supported your cause? Oh wait, I know what you want; you want him to go out to the middle of the ice, lay out a huge rainbow flag, tear up his Russian passport, and withdraw.

    As I keep saying, the Olympics went to China with barely a tenth of the fuss being kicked up over this. And China should never have been awarded the Olympics at all. So there you go.
    Oh, please. There was a lot of criticism about China's human rights issues and there were people who were persona non grata in Beijing because they spoke out about it (e.g. Joey Cheek).

    As for Russian skaters, I know that Kovtun has used homophobic language on social media and I've heard from a credible source that Trankov has made homophobic comments more than once, though I can't confirm that. Volosozhar is by most accounts a sweetheart, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. I just wish she'd pick better material to skate to. Since none of the Russian skaters are great favorites of mine, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing others on the podium.

    Plushenko would make an excellent flagbearer, though.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by karne View Post
    That is VERY unfair to the Russian skaters who have had absolutely nothing to do with this law, and whose only crime, in your eyes, is to be Russian. Did you know Evgeni Plushenko was one of the high-profile signatories on a petition against these laws? Will you hope he fails, just because he is Russian? Or would you prefer him to win the gold, because he supported your cause? Oh wait, I know what you want; you want him to go out to the middle of the ice, lay out a huge rainbow flag, tear up his Russian passport, and withdraw.

    As I keep saying, the Olympics went to China with barely a tenth of the fuss being kicked up over this. And China should never have been awarded the Olympics at all. So there you go.
    I did not know Mr Plushchenko signed a petition against the law. My personal esteem for him is growing I would like him even more if he did what you are suggesting.

    That's nice and everything, but I still won't support Russian athletes unless the law is reversed, and I don't think that is "unfair" to the Russian athletes. They don't need my support to win medals. I am not required to support athletes for the any reason. And i have already said MULTIPLE TIMES I don't wish for any skater to perform badly. Not supporting them is not the same as wishing them ill. I want other teams to perform better. There is a difference.

    As with China, like I said also before, two wrongs don't make a right.

  10. #70
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    I may not agree with a skater's religion, political views, country, etc... but it's a very narrowminded and childish attitude to somehow negate their accomplishments or ability (or support, if that's the word you want to use) because of it (trust me, as a child, that's how I chose my favorites). It is the same as saying I don't like Skater A because he's gay, or Skater B because they're black. Especially when it's based on what country they skate for and not an opinion they *may* have.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I may not agree with a skater's religion, political views, country, etc... but it's a very narrowminded and childish attitude to somehow negate their accomplishments or ability (or support, if that's the word you want to use) because of it (trust me, as a child, that's how I chose my favorites). It is the same as saying I don't like Skater A because he's gay, or Skater B because they're black. Especially when it's based on what country they skate for and not an opinion they *may* have.
    I don't think it's at all the same, Toni. A person cannot choose his race, ethnicity, country of origin or sexual orientation, but political opinions and even religious views can be changed and adapted. I don't actively seek to find out what anyone's political views are, but if a high profile person chooses to present them in a public forum (and that can include social media) that can affect my impression of them, for good or bad. It doesn't negate their professional accomplishments, but it can certainly impact my ability to take pleasure in these accomplishments.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by koatcue View Post
    By the way, those people who write that Russia should be..punished? Yeah, I see ur point, from where you are going, but still. Will Putin read this forum and see your outrage? Will ISU read it and finally get what a monster hosts the Olys? The answer is NO. But? for example, I had a lovely baad experience here and opportunity to read the comments such as " Russia is homophobic. Bad. Sportsmen are Russians = bad. Putin is Russian = bad. We want to see the good ones win" Do you know that many years Soviet government told people that foreigners dislike the Russians? Now, reading this and being Russian I fell..how to put it...quite uncomfortable. Cause following the logic I have a conclusion "Being Russian is bad, cause their president is a d-head"
    Believe me, as a German I heard horrible things in my life as well. Its just how people "express their anger" about certain things. You should not let it get close to you.

    The Russians I met at FS events but also off ice so to speak have always been very kind.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MalloryArcher View Post

    Because of this, although I personally won't be going to Sochi, I hope there are some who do go and make it known to Russia what the international community thinks of those laws. Peaceful protests are in order. And I really don't care how nice Tatiana Volosozhar is in person, I don't put her winning a gold medal above the chance to show Russia how wrong they are on gay rights. I won't support a Russian team until this law changes.
    what the ? being intolerable of other countries policies and others opinions
    doesn't that make you a hypocrite

    pls stop equating international community as European Countries
    its racist, bias and very ethno centric

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    what the ? being intolerable of other countries policies and others opinions
    doesn't that make you a hypocrite
    So disagreeing with a country's laws makes one a hypocrite? There are foul laws all around the world and when the international community disagrees with them they aren't doing it out of disrespect but because it fundamentally violates the rights of citizens. It is absolutely valid for other countries to denounce discrimination and persecution of people.

    Asking people to respect Russia's discrimination, as its their prerogative to do whatever they want to their citizens, is not the way the world works nor the way it should work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    Asking people to respect Russia's discrimination, as its their prerogative to do whatever they want to their citizens, is not the way the world works nor the way it should work.
    this mindset is very very wrong
    its like you are interfering ones own cultural policies and people's perception

    lets say you have naked runs in San Francisco ( not sure is that legal there ? ) and you go to another country
    you follow that countries rules and you wouldn't want the habit you have at home exported to some asian conservative countries
    of course that will get you arrested !!

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