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Thread: Germany can be out of the Olympics due to the anti-gay law

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    Japan never apologizing for victims of comfort women , nanjing massacre etc.
    Um. There are probably plenty of reasons to point the finger at Japan, just like most countries. But lack of apologies for those are not among them.

    Japan HAS officially apologised for those, more than once. And paid compensation. Despite a handful of idiot Japanese politicians throwing spanners into the works.

    The trouble is, the apologies can never be good enough, and indeed Asian countries don't WANT Japan to apologise - they make it as diplomatically/politically difficult as they can, to prevent it.

    Because it's such a handy go-to... to wheel out when things are going badly at home, and the politicians want to look all strong and nationalistic, and divert attention from domestic affairs.

    More info --> here. Buy the book if it's something that interests you.

  2. #77
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    So, sky_fly, just to be clear, you think the international community has no place to intervene when a country is persecuting or discriminating against its citizens. And you think it is a country's prerogative to discriminate and persecute its citizens - because those people are THEIR citizens - and are thereby justified when they do so.

    Tolerance and human rights isn't some western ideal that is being enforced on other countries. It's something that should be available to all people regardless of nationality. That's why it's referred to as human rights.

  3. #78
    the Golden Era sky_fly20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post

    Tolerance and human rights isn't some western ideal that is being enforced on other countries. It's something that should be available to all people regardless of nationality. That's why it's referred to as human rights.
    of course human rights should exist but should not be defined by the UN or other international western governing body
    it should be defined from a countries borders only what the term human rights mean or whatever rights they think it is and means for its citizens

    e.g: circumcision, probably 1/5 of the world is circumcised in men, say the UN appeals this is violation of humans body
    this will cause polarization and jews, muslims and many countries with circumcision tradition will of course disagree
    what makes female circumcision an issue and mens not see ?

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    There are bigots in every country and good people in every country. It's disgusting when the bigots are in charge, and it happens particularly in nations where fear pervades all aspects of society.

    Fear has been a part of Russia for a very long time. It's unfortunate and a part of the national identity. This leads to authoritarian rule and persecution of all kinds of different people.

    As an American with Russian family background, I hope one day the people as a whole will learn to let go of their fears and embrace a more open and free society.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    this mindset is very very wrong
    its like you are interfering ones own cultural policies and people's perception

    lets say you have naked runs in San Francisco ( not sure is that legal there ? ) and you go to another country
    you follow that countries rules and you wouldn't want the habit you have at home exported to some asian conservative countries
    of course that will get you arrested !!
    Unlike naked runs in San Francisco, discrimination against gay people condemns to lifelong misery a group of people who have done nobody any harm. Not having the liberty to go naked in public is not at all equivalent to trying to force people to hide their identity and become someone else. For no good reason.

  6. #81
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    of course human rights should exist but should not be defined by the UN or other international western governing body
    it should be defined from a countries borders only what the term human rights mean or whatever rights they think it is and means for its citizens
    Again, I am working on my academic experience in Political Anthropology and International Relations. Yes, for hundreds of years (especially following the 1648 Peace of Westphalia which structured IR for hundreds of years) politics was based on the nation state where national borders provided very clear ideas of nationalist sovereignty, or the idea that a government has entire control over what occurs within their state and the manner in which their government is structured and no other state has any right or power in acting within another nation's borders, which largely extended to a policy of not commenting on anothers internal policies.

    However, this has changed DRAMATICALLY in the past 50 years and even more so in the last 20 years. As we move toward a future of Global Governance within an economic and cultural system that is global rather than national, individuals are increasingly being identified as and identifying as cosmopolitan citizens of the world rather than a single nation. The simple fact that everyone in this thread does not come from the same nation echos this, as does the existence of the IOC and the Modern Olympic Movement. As we move towards this future, a nation's actions on their citizens become increasingly seen as concerns of the world on the human being, rather than only concerns of a nation on the national citizen. This is why on an academic level our discussion would easily move beyond the concept of national sovereignty.

  7. #82
    the Golden Era sky_fly20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pista04 View Post

    However, this has changed DRAMATICALLY in the past 50 years and even more so in the last 20 years. As we move toward a future of Global Governance within an economic and cultural system that is global rather than national, individuals are increasingly being identified as and identifying as cosmopolitan citizens of the world rather than a single nation. The simple fact that everyone in this thread does not come from the same nation echos this, as does the existence of the IOC and the Modern Olympic Movement. As we move towards this future, a nation's actions on their citizens become increasingly seen as concerns of the world on the human being, rather than only concerns of a nation on the national citizen. This is why on an academic level our discussion would easily move beyond the concept of national sovereignty.
    I may sound like a conspiracy theorist now but I would not want to be a citizen of the world under one governing body, ever
    I want to live a sovereign state with my own rules and policies, I appreciate diversity of opinions

    this is actually one of the root causes of the World problems right now
    too many government are interfering and not minding their own business

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    I may sound like a conspiracy theorist now but I would not want to be a citizen of the world under one governing body, ever
    I want to live a sovereign state with my own rules and policies, I appreciate diversity of opinions

    this is actually one of the root causes of the World problems right now
    too many government are interfering and not minding their own business
    Diversity of opinions is truly a wonderful thing UNLESS it results in direct harm to innocent people.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    it should be defined from a countries borders only what the term human rights mean or whatever rights they think it is and means for its citizens
    So a country that persecutes gays or disenfranchises women are upholding human rights, going by their definition?

    If the US or any country banned interracial marriage or allowed slavery would that be upholding human rights because the law finds nothing wrong with pro scribing that?

    To say a country should define their own human rights and people should respect that could not be more of an obtuse statement, as there are several countries that persecute or discriminate against citizens and are completely fine with it and don't view it as a violation of basic human rights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I don't think it's at all the same, Toni. A person cannot choose his race, ethnicity, country of origin or sexual orientation, but political opinions and even religious views can be changed and adapted. I don't actively seek to find out what anyone's political views are, but if a high profile person chooses to present them in a public forum (and that can include social media) that can affect my impression of them, for good or bad. It doesn't negate their professional accomplishments, but it can certainly impact my ability to take pleasure in these accomplishments.
    Yes You understand what I'm saying.

    Also I think tonichelle draws a false parallel between not supporting someone at the Olympics based on the country they represent and not appreciating their skills as skaters. I think some of the Russian skaters are great skaters but this comes after the fact that they are going on a world stage to represent and do proud an inherently discriminatory state now.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasdedeux View Post
    Diversity of opinions is truly a wonderful thing UNLESS it results in direct harm to innocent people.
    ITA. If your opinion is you dislike gays, that's on you. But laws like these are harming LGBT citizens, under the false pretense of preventing children from being harmed by so-called gay propaganda. It prevents gays from even acknowledging that they are happy and normal. Worse, it removes children from loving families and parents which is actually counter intuitive to the whole "somebody think of the children" tripe used to defend these laws.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    what the ? being intolerable of other countries policies and others opinions
    doesn't that make you a hypocrite

    pls stop equating international community as European Countries
    its racist, bias and very ethno centric
    So I should be tolerant of Russia's intolerance. Puh-lease. You're being ridiculous.

    Homophobia is not an important part of Russian culture. That's absurd. It's based on misinformation and superstition, it's harmful and it's wrong.

    PS It's Russia that purports to be European by signing the European Convention on Human Rights (and then ignoring it).

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I don't think it's at all the same, Toni. A person cannot choose his race, ethnicity, country of origin or sexual orientation, but political opinions and even religious views can be changed and adapted. I don't actively seek to find out what anyone's political views are, but if a high profile person chooses to present them in a public forum (and that can include social media) that can affect my impression of them, for good or bad. It doesn't negate their professional accomplishments, but it can certainly impact my ability to take pleasure in these accomplishments.
    I could not control where I was born. The skaters that skate for Russia (all Russian athletes) did not have much of a choice when it came to their Nationality. yes, they could change to another country if they really really wanted to, but this sport is all about timing and waiting for citizenship doesn't always happen quickly.

    I may completely disagree with you politically and religiously and I still like you just fine If all I did was like and hang out with people that thought exactly like me how boring and skewed would my life be?

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    I want to live a sovereign state with my own rules and policies, I appreciate diversity of opinions
    You mean like how you and the Russian government appreciate and consider the opinion that there's nothing abnormal about being gay?

  15. #90
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I could not control where I was born. The skaters that skate for Russia (all Russian athletes) did not have much of a choice when it came to their Nationality. yes, they could change to another country if they really really wanted to, but this sport is all about timing and waiting for citizenship doesn't always happen quickly.

    I may completely disagree with you politically and religiously and I still like you just fine If all I did was like and hang out with people that thought exactly like me how boring and skewed would my life be?
    But I specifically noted that country of origin is not something I would hold against a skater, Toni. What I disagreed with was your equating religious and political beliefs - which individuals can choose and can decide whether to share publicly or not - with country of origin, race, ethnicity and sexual orientation, which cannot be controlled. Some might say that people can choose whether to express their sexuality or not, but to say that is to deny LGBT people the opportunity to have romantic relationships, so as far as I'm concerned it goes with race, country of origin and the rest.

    I have noted more than once in this thread that I don't share MalloryArcher's feelings about all Russian skaters. However, I have little admiration for those Russian skaters who have expressed homophobic views. As for the rest, most just aren't my cup of tea skating-wise - I like some of the pairs, but none with a realistic shot at the podium, and I'm keeping an eye on Julia but am currently undecided about her. Plushy I find entertaining but there are skaters I like better.

    I have friends who politics and faith are quite different from mine, but none who have expressed views that I find abhorrent. There are some people in this thread who have expressed such views, however, and some of their comments veer awfully close to being against GS guidelines (as I understand them).

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