Do we overrate skaters of past eras? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Do we overrate skaters of past eras?

Srin Odessa

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2012
It's difficult to compete athletes from one era against the other. Boxing fans talk about how Ali, Joe Frazier, or George Foreman in their primes would have fared against Mike Tyson (note: they totally would have beaten iron Mike down). The training methods and metagame of a sport change over time.

I think if Lynn, Hamill, or Fleming skated under COP with today's technology and know-how, then they would have the drive and natural talent to excel under that scoring system.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Thanks.

I've only had one or two courses on dance history. Care to elaborate?

Here's a skating champion from the early 1970s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daBiEb6Zcyc
How would folks compare his artistry with the top skaters of the early 2010s?
I'm not a dance expert, either, let's just get that legal disclaimer out there right now. :biggrin:

Here are what I believe are some of the relevant trends in contemporary dance:

1) The questioning of canonical forms as a first principle. The beginnings of the evolution of contemporary dance toward greater freedom of movement probably preceded the process that we discussed in figure skating by a few decades. At its birth, contemporary dance was marked by a break with the rigidly defined forms of classical ballet. Why, it was asked, should dance be defined by variations on only a handful of received "positions"?

At around the same time, some began to explore the idea that dance was not necessarily an exercise in form for form's sake, but that it should be reflective of psychological realities that one wished to express; that expressive intention ought to dictate form, not the other way round.

These two ideas, which really began to take root in the post-WWII era, were what opened the floodgates for ever greater breadth and variety in movement in dance. Katarina Witt, I would argue, is probably the first prominent beneficiary of these developments in skating, but they certainly did not stop with her.

The gulf between a Janet Lynn program, and one for a Yuna Kim, is largely a result of, and explained by, this prior evolution in dance.

2) In the 60's and 70's, dance began to be influenced by the ideas, originally literary in nature, of "Post-Modern" theorists such as Foucault and Derrida. Their primary assertion was that established standards, potentially in any undertaking, really, were reflective of the tastes of those who held the preponderance of power within a community, and, further, that such established standards served to support the positions of those in power. Subtle and involved techniques such as "Deconstruction" were employed to demonstrate this assertion, probably contributing visibly to global deforestation, as rampaging armies of PhD candidates proceeded to consume terrifying quantities of paper like a Biblical plague of termites.

One of the important changes that occurred as a result is that the disassembly of "established" standards or expectations came to be seen as an important aesthetic project in itself. We began to see this critique embodied in the introduction of forms and movement intended to make space for diversity of race, of class, of gender, of sexual orientation, etc.

We can see the influence of these developments in contemporary dance on figure skating. Contemporary dance, and later, figure skating, has borrowed from jazz, hip-hop and other street styles (the instances are legion, in both dance and figure skating, so examples are unnecessary); has scoured the world for fresh inspiration from previously unacknowledged ethnic styles (D/W's much celebrated "Bollywood" dance would probably have been impossible a couple of decades ago, although the abuses, such as DomShab's "Aboriginal" dance, are also a result of what has almost become a cultural Easter Egg hunt), the blurring of gender expectations in movement and presentation (Johnny Weir is only the most prominent/notorious example).

All of this has led to much greater choice and diversity of style and movement, first in dance, almost inevitably followed, after a decent interval, by skating. Being a relative newcomer to the arts, figure skating generally still follows aesthetic trends rather than sets them.

3) The downside of all this for skating, however, is the signature weakness that characterizes all things connected with the Post-Modern project: the idea that, if it's all determined by power relationships, then maybe there are no such things as "standards" at all, that there's no good or bad, right or wrong, beautiful or ugly. The much-abused notion of "subjectivity" has its intellectual origins here. Many have grown up with it, imbibed it with their lunchtime milk, and think of it as self-evident, though I doubt that all who espouse the idea have really thought through its genealogy and implications.

This is why skating is plagued by the insidious twin slogans that nothing can be explained without a basis in ulterior motive, and therefore nothing legitimately judged. This, too, is part of dance's legacy to figure skating.

I take a fairly optimistic long view, though. In intellectual circles, the pendulum has already begun to swing back from such excesses, and the emerging equilibrium will, I predict, eventually trickle down into our Conventional Wisdom.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
To me, that pretty much frames the question. Fifty years from now, which will be more admired? A "truly gorgeous skate" or a performance that was state-or-the-art for 2014?

I won't be around to collect my winnings, but I bet that in the year 2100 more people will be calling up John Curry's 1976 Olympic free skate on direct-to-brain-tube than Patrick Chan's 2014 skate. (Sorry, Patrick -- prove me wrong. :) )
Oh hoho, you are a deviously deep one, Mathman.

See, I don't agree with the dichotomy that you artfully presented. There are contemporary skates that are truly gorgeous, as well.

It's like the old joke where a guy is asked: "So, did you stop cheating on your wife?" Whether the answer is "yes" or "no", you're still sunk. :laugh:

As to your specific question: IMHO, Patrick's TEB skate this year will last for a long time, if that continues to stand as his very best performance. Somehow, though, I think that very few outside of a few fanatics will be regularly watching either John Curry or Patrick Chan in 2100; I personally have never watched a performance by Madge Syers. ;)
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I think you can't take these things out of context. With figure skating, it's not just about the artistic achievement. It's a competition and an Olympic sport. I admit to having re-watched Tara Lipinski's Olympic LP many times because of the moment. Was it a timeless piece of art? Well. No. Was it an unforgettable moment of competitive grit and athletic triumph? Undeniably so. So it was a moment in figure skating history that I for one will never forget.

Maybe people who weren't around will not be so impressed when they watch Tara's skate in a couple of decades. But how can they fully appreciate the moment without having lived through the build up and then watched it live?

Another one is Yuna Kim's Olympic performance - both the LP and the SP. Of course, those skates are superb in any context. But then if you add the context - the Olympic pressure - it's almost a superhuman in its perfection. For sure she deserves to be remembered every bit as Janet Lynn.
 

Robeye

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 16, 2010

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Well, I don't mean that the skaters should wear masks or that someone should write ridiculous scripts for them to act out, like wrestling. But back in the "golden age," most of the skaters had an interesting back story or persona that made people like them (or not) for reasons other than their edges or knee bends. Look how they do it on reality shows. Everyone has some sort of a sob story or some sort of an angle. I don't remember if Nancy flutzed or if Maria Butyrskaya had good posture, but I remember that one had a blind mother and the other was "woman among girls."

I don't know if we have an unusually happy/well adjusted bunch here, or if the coverage in the US is so sparse that we really don't get to know them very well. But they're not "popping" as personalities as they did before, which may not affect the skating or judging, but may affect popularity in the future.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Well, I don't mean that the skaters should wear masks or that someone should write ridiculous scripts for them to act out, like wrestling. But back in the "golden age," most of the skaters had an interesting back story or persona that made people like them (or not) for reasons other than their edges or knee bends. Look how they do it on reality shows. Everyone has some sort of a sob story or some sort of an angle. I don't remember if Nancy flutzed or if Maria Butyrskaya had good posture, but I remember that one had a blind mother and the other was "woman among girls."

I don't know if we have an unusually happy/well adjusted bunch here, or if the coverage in the US is so sparse that we really don't get to know them very well. But they're not "popping" as personalities as they did before, which may not affect the skating or judging, but may affect popularity in the future.

Well, it helped that skating was on TV way more frequently than it is now. The increased frequency led to more fluff pieces, which led us to believe that we connected with the skaters more on a personal level.
 

GF2445

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 7, 2012
Carolina's gold medal performance at 2012 Worlds is the closest to old time performance in 20 years.
I prefer Mao and Yuna to Carolina prior to 2012, but since that performance, I've rewatched Caro's 2012 LP more than anything I've seen from Yuna and Mao.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjBtanpTYTY

I love her pure skating. She has all the qualities I love from figure skating.

I agree, carolina's 2012 LP was simply but beautiful. I can rewatch it anyday (or any of Carolina's programs...except the one's she completely bombed out on.
Being a skating fan after the inception of IJS i personally find it natual to see slating with so much content in it but watching skating from the past on Youtube has been refreshing. The connection which you talk about is certainly there. The role of the choreographer then seemed to have a larger role in a skater's program then compared to now as they had more freedom.
 

gettinglow

Match Penalty
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Probably.

I think it's just human nature to look back on the past and fawn over things because, well, it's an easy way to discredit the present. The fact is, while skaters like Dorothy Hamill, Katerina Witt, Kristi Yamaguchi, Scott Hamilton, etc. were all amazing for their respective quads, it's not like I (or most people) are actually rushing home to watch videos of their programs. Sure, they were impressive for their time, but to me the style of skating along with the technical elements all look terribly dated (as they should....the world and figure skating has changed a lot since they were dominant skaters).

So...it's not surprising when certain commentators or figure skating enthusiasts casually dismiss skaters of the present era. Sure, in 20 years Yuna, Mao, Carolina, Patrick, etc...all of their work will look dated and a bit kitchsy...just like every other skater that has ever been. No skater, however beautiful they were for their time, really holds up THAT well over time. And that's totally ok. I think it's just annoying that some commentators think certain skaters' work will be viewed SOOOO much more affectionately than any other top skater's work. In the end, it's all gonna look like it came from some bygone era.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Maybe the newer future icons would never be as revered as the older ones because nostalgia ain't what it used to be. ;)
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
It is interesting to see the responses in this thread. Many of the replies seem to fall under:

1) We cannot compare past skaters to present ones because of the vastly different criteria by which they are judged. i.e. Lynn had to spend time training figures, whereas Kostner does not

2) We cannot compare the past to present skaters because figure skating as a sport has developed unidirectionally. i.e. Janet Lynn has laid the groundwork for Kwan who laid the groundwork for Kim etc.

3) We should look at these performances by objective criteria regardless of time period. e.g. Lynn had better edges than Kostner, and Mao has more triple jumps than Emi Watanabe

4) This is an entirely subjective matter, and thus we cannot compare anyone amongst these qualities mentioned by Dave and the OP.

5) We are human, and we can be biased by nostalgic factors such as when we first became interested in figure skating. Or, by factors such as nationality.


For me, I think we sometimes overrate older skaters under #5, but that we also underrate them in terms of #2 and #1.

You summed it up pretty well.

Basically, older skaters are both devalued and over-valued, depending on whom you ask. Go to any youtube video of an older skater's performance and you'll find a ton of disrespectful comments from younger fans and current amateur skaters bashing them and laughing at how easy and "lame" everything looks.
 

Rossig

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
I think it's quite opposite. We often underrate the past skaters. Most people really appreciate what they can see during their life. If we made here a poll for the best ever skaters, I suppose that none of the skaters from 1970s or earlier, would win it.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I think it's quite opposite. We often underrate the past skaters. Most people really appreciate what they can see during their life. If we made here a poll for the best ever skaters, I suppose that none of the skaters from 1970s or earlier, would win it.

I agree. You never heard talk about Dick Button, Gillis Grafstrom, the Protoppopovs, the Jolys, Pakhomova & Gorshkov, Moiseeva & Minenkov, Henie, Heiss, and many other icons anymore which is crazy and very dissapointing. Many other sports, heck almost all other sports, are more respectful to history than skating. Someone like CSG just looks at a skater from the past, laughs look they didnt do all the triples, and dismisses them as nothing. Sadly there are too many folks like that these days.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I think it's quite opposite. We often underrate the past skaters. Most people really appreciate what they can see during their life. If we made here a poll for the best ever skaters, I suppose that none of the skaters from 1970s or earlier, would win it.

Speaking only for myself, of course, but:

Dick Button, John Curry, Toller Cranston, Janet Lynn, Protopopovs, Irina Rodnina... no "best ever" list could be considered remotely comprehensive without these names on on it.
 

Rossig

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Dick Button, John Curry, Toller Cranston, Janet Lynn, Protopopovs, Irina Rodnina... no "best ever" list could be considered remotely comprehensive without these names on on it.

I completely agree. But if you made a poll here in this forum, do you think they would be leading? I just doubt, but hope I'm wrong.
 

Panpie

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Fortunately, we can have it all and don't have to choose. I do think that some modern skaters such as YuNa, Mao, and Daisuke are creating lasting works. At the same time, I can go back and rewatch John Curry, Janet Lynn, or Michelle any time and be astounded by the beauty of their skating.

Amen. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice of more recent versus past greats. The greats of the sport, whether recent or long retired, all have wonderful qualities. I think Yuna Kim and Mao Asada's programs and what they brought to the sport will be well-remembered in years to come. Not enough time has passed to really assess how much the newer standard bearers will be remembered versus people such as Janet Lynn, but I have not one doubt that they will be remembered and remembered fondly.
 
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