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Thread: Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    If you are unable to see with your own eyes then at least look at the score sheet, will you?

    1st place PCS and last place performance PCS remaining the same is ok with you? If you insist PCS should remain constant despite good or poor performance then why do you accept huge boost for YH's PCS and pick on PC's high PCS when he made mistakes?

    I can also insist based on your inconsistently applied standards & criteria that PC deserves his PCS every time and YH's PCS is ridiculous,ie. logic and math be damned.

    As for LP PCS, PC's remained within a range of 5 this season, Machida's a range of 2, YH's a range of 16! SP PC's range is 2, YH's range is 5 !

    PC's PCS range in total is 7 advantage combined, YH's PCS range at GPF is 21 advantage (3 times PC) within a few weeks, enough to deliver gold. So whose PCS is more consistent and realistic given that you insist Machida's PCS should not change whether he botched or delivered 1st for his programs?

    My point is not to say that PCS should always be constant. I'm simply saying that your "math methods" are not enough to determine if the PCS given out by the judges are wrong or right.

    You said that Machida's PCS should be lower than usual at the GPF because his TES were half of what he got at the other GP's. Well:

    - his PCS WERE lower than at the other Grand Prix's (only slightly but still)
    - low TES should not necessarily correlate with low PCS. It always depends on the actual performace. If a skater jumps only triple lutzes his TES will be very low because he made about 6 invalid elements, but he still could have a great perormace which would deserve high PCS. I argue that a skater potentially the lowest TES of the field and still deserve the highest PCS.

    As for Hanyu and Chan:
    In the SP, I found the judging of the PCS very good. Hanyu was clean and amazing and Chan's multiple mistakes ruined the program a bit, so Hanyu getting higher PCS for PE, CH and IN were absolutey correct IMO. In the LP, it made sense that Chan got higher PCS than Haynu but both skaters were scored too high compared to the other skaters.

  2. #107
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    I wouldn't say -1 point is a lower PCS at all. In that case then you have to agree PC unfairly received lower LP PCS (-1) here compared to TEB.

    It's also not just 1 jump but low & -tve GOE scores for other elements, how can that not make a difference to Machida's SP performance?

    I can apply the same logic of yours to PC's performance, that despite TES mistakes, he deserves his PCS, yet in another post, you said you hope judges will have the courage to mark down his PCS if he makes mistakes.


    At GPF, Hanyu's PCS jumped, +11, while PC's PCS was actually lowered by -1 compared to TEB. So no, if there's overscoring of PCS at GPF, it's YH's. PC skated relatively clean LP at GPF, YH didn't, yet the difference in PCS amounted to +12 points for YH, in a competition where even 0.01 would be a decider.

    When the entire season's PCS is considered, the jumps in marks are even more astronomical than YH's.

    YH is talented, no doubt, but his best thus far is nowhere near PC's or other greats' best. My hopes for OGM is much higher than what I've seen from YH, perhaps he'll be ready for Korea 2018.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I wouldn't say -1 point is a lower PCS at all. In that case then you have to agree PC unfairly received lower LP PCS (-1) here compared to TEB.

    It's also not just 1 jump but low & -tve GOE scores for other elements, how can that not make a difference to Machida's SP performance?

    Again, there is no rule which says that PCS are dependant on the TES. So Machida got lower GOEs at the GPF than usual...how does that affect his Skating Skills, Transitions or Choreography? Yeah, you guessed: Not at all. It *may* affect his scores for P/E but even that not necessarily the case.


    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    I can apply the same logic of yours to PC's performance, that despite TES mistakes, he deserves his PCS, yet in another post, you said you hope judges will have the courage to mark down his PCS if he makes mistakes.


    At GPF, Hanyu's PCS jumped, +11, while PC's PCS was actually lowered by -1 compared to TEB. So no, if there's overscoring of PCS at GPF, it's YH's. PC skated relatively clean LP at GPF, YH didn't, yet the difference in PCS amounted to +12 points for YH, in a competition where even 0.01 would be a decider.

    When the entire season's PCS is considered, the jumps in marks are even more astronomical than YH's.

    Again: Marks from different competitions cannot be compared like you are doing it. Hanyu skated the best I've ever seen him at the GPF (I haven't seen all of his programs at the other Grand Prix events) so it make sense that his PCS were higher than usual. I said before that he stil got inflated scores for skating at home (so got Chan for reputation) and I'm criticising that.

  4. #109
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    If there's no rule or principle, i.e. poor TES does not affect PCS, then you must agree your opinion of PC's PCS isn't based on any either. What applies to PC by judges is similar to what is applied to Machida here, i.e. even if his TES fell by half, i.e. he performed 50% of his technical elements, he is entirely entitled to his full PCS as if he performed fully for his TES. So remember, PC's next falls or botched jumps, i.e. TES failures, including those at the Olympics, should not affect his PCS awarded by judges! No cries of "foul!" when that happens.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Again, there is no rule which says that PCS are dependant on the TES. So Machida got lower GOEs at the GPF than usual...how does that affect his Skating Skills, Transitions or Choreography? Yeah, you guessed: Not at all.
    To use your own statement, how can Hanyu's CH, SS, and TR scores go up a whole point when he performed technically better at the GPF but his programs remained essentially the same from TEB to GPF? It's understandable if PE and IN went up (even if by a lot) but those other PCS scores shouldn't have jumped so high. It's certainly greater than any jump in PCS Chan has ever received.

  6. #111
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Patrick would never do a posing section for 15 seconds because he doesn't take those kinds of breaks... and yes, it's a break... not some purposeful theatrical section full of gravitas as you're trying to make it seem to be.
    That must be why people greatly adore Yagudin, Lambiel, etc. Because those sections of their programs were worthless and didn't create a significant effect that has stuck in peoples' memories. Keep telling yourself that.

  7. #112
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    A skater can be faster and smoother from one competition to the next which will improve SS and possibly TR scores (because the transitions become more CLEAR in what they are when there's more power and smoothness to the skating). Also, if a skater skates with more confidence, it could affect CH as well because it looks more cohesive.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    If there's no rule or principle, i.e. poor TES does not affect PCS, then you must agree your opinion of PC's PCS isn't based on any either. What applies to PC by judges is similar to what is applied to Machida here, i.e. even if his TES fell by half, i.e. he performed 50% of his technical elements, he is entirely entitled to his full PCS as if he performed fully for his TES. So remember, PC's next falls or botched jumps, i.e. TES failures, including those at the Olympics, should not affect his PCS awarded by judges! No cries of "foul!" when that happens.
    Machida's TES was so low mainly because he Zayaked (i.e. his 3Lz-2T combo wasn't counted at all), not because he performed "half of his technical elements". There is no reason for this kind of error to affect PCS (as opposed to falling, stepping out and other visibly disruptive jump mistakes), so this isn't at all like what Patrick usually does.

  9. #114
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    I was surprised that with Machida performing similar to CoR (yes, he landed a 3A+3T in CoR but still did 2 quads and 2 axels), yet his PCS (82.50 CoR vs. 82.30 at GPF) was actually the same. Like, it's almost as though the judges were actually consistent in spite of Machida's home ice advantage... guess they saved all the homecooked PCS for Hanyu and Oda?

  10. #115
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    I'm not sure how Hanyu's scores rising from one event to the next proves anything. That's like saying, "He just got a big raise...therefore he must be overpaid." But it proves nothing. The whole point of CoP is that it's supposed to be more objective, and the scores should match the performance on that day. From what I saw, the scores for Hanyu were justified by his performance at GPF and compared to what everyone else did. He was fast, had good flow, huge jumps, lots of transitions. I do think Chan has better skating skills but Hanyu's was still good.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerio2 View Post
    I'm not sure how Hanyu's scores rising from one event to the next proves anything. That's like saying, "He just got a big raise...therefore he must be overpaid." But it proves nothing. The whole point of CoP is that it's supposed to be more objective, and the scores should match the performance on that day. From what I saw, the scores for Hanyu were justified by his performance at GPF and compared to what everyone else did. He was fast, had good flow, huge jumps, lots of transitions. I do think Chan has better skating skills but Hanyu's was still good.
    I agree. Particularly with someone like Hanyu who does a lot of difficult transitions into and out of elements, when he misses jumps it is sometimes because he is off balance on the take-offs, so that could indicate lower quality of the transitional elements when he has a weak performance. When he is on balance his skating is like no one else.

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