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Thread: Can patrick chan close the gap on yuzuru hanyu?

  1. #46
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    The reason why Chan takes more time to do his transitions is because it goes with the music
    That's his choice. The 5 components are separate. If you choose to do less difficult transitions in order to interpret the music better, then you should expect your interpretation and maybe choreography scores to go up (and maybe performance as well, if this allows you to project better), but your transitions score to go down.

    Hanyu's 4S entrance is not "standard", stop saying that. If you look at Max Aaron or Kevin Reynolds or Brian Joubert, they don't do that much into their 4S. Looking at it closely again, you're right that it's mohawk-3-mohawk, but that's a more difficult entrance than just a 3 turn (which is what Patrick does). Completely disagree still that Chan's other lead-ins are more difficult. Doing ONE difficult turn (a rocker is the easiest of the difficult turns for maintaining speed, btw, it doesn't have counter-rotation) and then giving yourself 5 seconds to setup a jump is not more difficult than doing steps directly into a jump.

  2. #47
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    Mohawk-3-Mohawk is not considered a difficult entrance. It comprises no difficult turns or steps (Javier's opening 4S in his SP has two of these performed in succession and with a rocker leading into them so that makes it more of a transition). You can do all the Mohawks and 3 turns you want in a footwork sequence and it isn't adding to its complexity. Stop trying to make it sound like its difficult - it's not like I'm saying the entry of both of Chan's quads (skating backwards, then RBI-FLO Choctaw then 3-turn into the quad) should be considered difficult or intricate even though its technically harder than entering a 4T skating forward as Hanyu does.

    Patrick's salchow entrance is a half loop off a triple lutz, not a simple 3 turn. Many skaters do a salchow setup like Hanyu's; it's how I do mine (opting for the back3-Mohawk instead of the forward 3-turn because I find it easier to check my free leg than a swinging 3-turn).

    Chan's rocker and flying counter are more difficult than Hanyu's counter and pirouette... like, go on ice and try them for yourself and see how hard it is to do the former while maintaining speed and control.

    Although you think Stephane Rosenthal's footwork is some sort of paradigm even though it doesn't exhibit particularly difficult turns or edges, and she opts for easier steps performed quickly for difficulty, so clearly your concept of what constitutes difficult transitions/footwork is in favour of quickness rather than complexity/edges.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You can do all the Mohawks and 3 turns you want in a footwork sequence and it isn't adding to its complexity.
    Completely false. The timing of those movements can certainly add difficulty and mohawks and 3's are both scored movements in footwork sequences. We aren't talking about a footwork sequence, though, but about a jump entrance. Mohawk-three-mohawk is more difficult than just a three. How even you even argue otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Patrick's salchow entrance is a half loop off a triple lutz, not a simple 3 turn.
    HUH? That's part of a jump combination. It has nothing to do with entrance into the combination itself. And Hanyu does it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Chan's rocker and flying counter are more difficult than Hanyu's counter and pirouette.
    Hanyu's counter? You mean before his 3Axel that also comes after a spread eagle? That's a more difficult entrance than anything Patrick does. Hanyu does more than just a pirouette into his 3Lutz-3Sal combo too, don't simplify it. And, sure, a flying counter is individually more difficult than any single step Hanyu does into the 3Lutz-3Sal, but it ISN'T done directly into a jump. Chan does crossovers after that movement before going into the jump. You refuse to see the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Although you think Stephane Rosenthal's footwork is some sort of paradigm even though it doesn't exhibit particularly difficult turns or edges.
    Yes it does. And Chan wouldn't be able to do that footwork without considerable training (and never with that amount of expression), so try again.

  4. #49
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    I was referring to Rosenthal's feet, not the upper body movements. That's why I said it doesn't have complexity or deep edges (obviously her interpretation is good but not the difficulty of the steps/turns).

    Also I meant Chan's rocker and flying counter are harder than Hanyu's *choctaw* (before his 4T) and pirouette before his sequence.

  5. #50
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    Hanyu does a Mohawk to turn backwards and then a 3-turn Mohawk. It's how the majority of skaters who do a Mohawk entry salchow instead of a 3-turn go into their salchow (usually they will skate backwards then do a 3-turn and Mohawk into the salchow.... adding a Mohawk before it is not difficult and certainly not considered a creative entry). Yes, a Mohawk-3-Mohawk is more steps than a 3-turn however none of those steps are hard. Also it's not like Hanyu is doing a series of quick turning 3's preceded by a rocker as Javier does into his 4S in his SP.

    According to your logic, Chan starting backwards and doing a RBI-LFO Choctaw directly into the 3turn before his both of his quads should be considered a transition (and not simply a standard quad setup like the simple mohawk-3-mohawk into Hanyu's 4S). It's certainly more direct into his 4T than Hanyu doing a Choctaw and then taking a simple step onto his right foot before his forward 3-turn into his 4T.

  6. #51
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    Imagine Patrick and Yuzuru sitting on a couch and laughing while reading this thread (and its previous incarnation). That would make an excellent beginning to a fanfic ...

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    Hanyu's pirouette prior to his sequence is followed by a simple 3-turn and right foot crossing over before doing the exact entry Chan does into his lutzes. If you consider Chan's flying counter as not part of the transition because he takes a few simple steps before the choctaw into the lutz, then you have to consider the same of Hanyu's pirouette which also has simple steps before the Choctaw into the lutz. The pirouette isn't directly into the lutz sequence and neither is Chan's flying counter but both are part of the lead up into it, and this both considered transitional. And of course, a flying counter is much harder than a pirouette.

    I suppose I'm wasting my breath though since you seem to think Hanyu's 4S entry is actually exhibiting a creative/difficult entrance) and appreciate simple steps executed quickly rather than complex turns with edges.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I was referring to Rosenthal's feet, not the upper body movements. That's why I said it doesn't have complexity or deep edges (obviously her interpretation is good but not the difficulty of the steps/turns).
    I am referring to her feet as well. It DOES have complexity. The rhythm and changes of direction and type of step are NOT easy. She does a twizzle as well, which is a difficult turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hanyu does a Mohawk to turn backwards and then a 3-turn Mohawk. It's how the majority of skaters who do a Mohawk entry salchow instead of a 3-turn do their salchow.
    NO, it isn't. People normally do a back glide into a slow 3 turn and then briefly pause before the mohawk. Hanyu is doing mohawk-3-mohawk with a clear rhythm. That is more difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Hanyu's pirouette prior to his sequence is followed by a simple 3-turn and right foot crossing over before doing the exact entry Chan does into his lutzes.
    No. Here is exactly what Hanyu does: piroutte, step, 3-turn, change edge, step, step.

    It doesn't matter if they are all individually simple moves, it's doing them together and in CONTINUOUS motion and rhythm directly into the jump that makes it difficult.

    Patrick does crossovers over his flying counter. Crossovers are easier than 3 turns and other steps. They let you build speed and provide stability.

  9. #54
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    A Mohawk-3-Mohawk with clear rhythm is a still a simple series and no legit judge would consider that a creative/difficult entry.

    Chan's LFI+crossover after his flying counter is still less steps than the ones you mentioned. You also failed to mention that the step after the change of edge Hanyu crosses over his right foot to provide stability before the lutz sequence entry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyskates View Post
    Actually,to put things in perspective, Chan vs Hanyu should be placed in the context of Mao vs Lipnitskaia. Both are veteran champions against talented upstart, one (Chan) skated a poorer SP vis rival, the other (Mao) a poorer LP, yet Chan lost while Mao won. It doesn't take a stretch of imagination to see that there's slight home advantage at work here, both TES & PCS, if the scores are compared. Question is, without home advantage, which scenario is more likely to prevail at Sochi?

    Chan (likewise Mao) has two things going for him at Sochi - (1)veteran champion, reputation, prior olympics experience, history, etc. (2) skating style, program, choreography, etc. closer to the more matured traditional approach favored by Russians to beat an advantage for PCS.

    What are the odds that a clean Lipnitskaia (girl) would win against a somewhat clean Mao (woman)? At this juncture, it is not even debated, it's Yuna vs Mao, even with home advantage for Lipnitskaia.

    However, should either Mao or Yuna or Patrick skate really badly beyond any slight cushion they may have, then the gates are flung open for the younger new comers.

    If the Russians throw in a good-shape Plushenko to compete against Chan, then it gets even more interesting.

    A comparision between Julia and Hanyu is laughable. Hanyu has the best jumps in the World today, and everyone acknowledges this (well minus a few Chan ubers but they are a special breed who cant be helped). Julia has very consistent jumps, but not near the best quality or strongest ones. Furthmore Hanyu gets better PCS than most of the other top skaters, even if below Chan. Julia outside of Russia often cant even beat a flawed Gold on PCS.

    If Hanyu and Chan both skated exactly like the Grand Prix final Hanyu will win easily, I guarantee it (perhaps in Russia, Chan might win the LP by a bit if both skate the Grand Prix final versions, but nowhere near enough to win overall if both skate short programs like that).

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    A Mohawk-3-Mohawk with clear rhythm is a still a simple series and no legit judge would consider that a creative/difficult entry.
    We aren't TALKING about that. Of course it's not a "difficult" entry in the grand scope of things but it is MORE difficult than just a 3 turn.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Chan's LFI+crossover after his flying counter is still less steps than the ones you mentioned.
    Again, what are you even talking about? Less steps doesn't mean more difficult and crossovers are easier than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    You also failed to mention that the step after the change of edge Hanyu crosses over his right foot to provide stability before the lutz sequence entry.
    That doesn't provide stability. It's an actual step and I did list it. Swinging your leg in front of the other like that is not a crossover. It doesn't let you build speed.

  12. #57
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    Well yes, if Chan skates as bad an SP like at the GPF and Hanyu as good an SP as the GPF and their free skates the same, I would hope than Chan easily wins the LP but Hanyu is placed ahead of Chan overall given the SP performances. I would expect the score to be much closer though with non-Japanese judging.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Well yes, if Chan skates as bad an SP like at the GPF and Hanyu as good an SP as the GPF and their free skates the same, I would hope than Chan easily wins the LP but Hanyu is placed ahead of Chan overall given the SP performances. I would expect the score to be much closer though with non-Japanese judging.
    Non-Japanese judging? Pretty sure they were not Japanese judges at the GPF.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    We aren't TALKING about that. Of course it's not a "difficult" entry in the grand scope of things but it is MORE difficult than just a 3 turn.

    Again, what are you even talking about? Less steps doesn't mean more difficult and crossovers are easier than anything else.

    That doesn't provide stability. It's an actual step and I did list it. Swinging your leg in front of the other like that is not a crossover. It doesn't let you build speed.
    A Mohawk-3-Mohawk into Hanyu's 4S is easier than a RBI-LFO Choctaw into a 3-turn (with "rhythm" if you will) that Chan does into his opening quad. Thus Chan's setup is arguably more complex than Hanyu's first quad setup (both are simple entries but Chan's is technically harder, as he's transferring from a CW circle to a CCW circle in the choctaw, whereas Hanyu stays on a CCW curve).

    For the 2nd quad, Hanyu does a Choctaw and then an extra step and then a forward 3-turn into his 4T. Chan does a Choctaw (RBI-LFO) directly into a 3-turn (no inbetween step like Hanyu) into the quad.. oh, and that Choctaw is preceded by Chan's RFO-LBO rocker too. So clearly Chan's entry into his second quad (with rocker and Choctaw into 3-turn) is harder than Hanyu's Choctaw plus step into 3-turn going into his 4T.

    I wasn't saying the leg crossing over builds speed but it does provide stability as a crossover does. And the point is that the primary maneuver leading up into the sequence, ie flying counter, can compromise Chan's speed a lot worse than the pirouette can compromise Hanyu's speed because it is a harder maneuver. There are several steps between the maneuver and the sequence for both skaters, and a single crossover isn't much of a break in transition compared to the 3-turn and right foot crossing over. Chan needs to do the crossover because his maneuver prior to it is more difficult than a pirouette.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    Non-Japanese judging? Pretty sure they were not Japanese judges at the GPF.
    Those judges clearly gave Hanyu higher PCS because it was in Japan. His PCS skyrocketed from TEB to GPF. PCS categories like CH and TR increased by over a point even though his choreography and transitions were essentially unchanged.

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